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Improving Mini Truck Fuel Economy

Discussion in 'Performance' started by Eljordano, Aug 14, 2008.

  1. rontopia

    rontopia New Member

    as I said.. I dont know if HHO systems are a scam or not.. what I did say is that there are no laws being broken if it did. and I do think some of your figures are off.. be that as it may, I do not have a HHO system and am not planing on buying one. just so you know that are some out therethat produce almost 4L every 60 seconds at 10 or so amps. how much actual fuel do you think an engine actually burns in 60 seconds?

    the problem with this whole concept is not that it cant work because it violates the first law of thermodynamics. the problem is an ineffencent electrolyzer.

    even wtih all your figures above, of which some I dont agree wtih as far as taking 1% of the power for the engine.. those watts are there as long as the engine is turning.. is there more drag on the engine to produce 120 wats or 0 watts? coils still pass over magnets no matter what.. as long as the engine is turning.

    again.. weather HHo systems work or not I dont know. and Im not saying they do. i just dont agree with invoking the first law and saying see it cant work. because the first law is about perpecual motion of which this is clearly not.
  2. John Canfield

    John Canfield Member

    Alternator theory of operation

    The more current the alternator produces, the more HP it takes to turn it. Alternator output is regulated by increasing/decreasing current to the field winding. More current=more magnetism=more rotational resistance=more output. The old generators used permanent magnets.

    Fuel from water is old scam that has been around for years and years. Here's one brief story from 1996. Things like this surface every few years when somebody decides they can make money by recycling a 'revolutionary concept.' A common element of these hucksters is there is always an element of truth and believability in the pitch.

    However, it is your money, so spend it where you see fit :)
  3. rontopia

    rontopia New Member

    im still not defending HHO systems. Im not saying this works. never did.

    it takes more HP to get more watts.. understood. do you know how much HP it takes to pull off 10 amps. I work on things much much smaller. still its hard to believe that its much HP to produce 6 to 10 amps especially when you consitter how many amps it takes to run a modern car. the difference could not be that big. lights, AC, supersonic nutron smaching gonging sound systems, power windows, power doors, not to mention the electronics in the engine, onboard computer systems, GPS navi systems, cruse control,.. i could go on.. but a modern cars take how many amps and any given time? I doubt 6 or 10 amps would be missed if the total amps is within the spec of the alternator. that amount would be less in HP then your making it out to be. I think.
  4. John Canfield

    John Canfield Member

    746 watts equals one horsepower. At 13.5 volts and ten amps, that would be (13.5*10) = 135 watts or 0.18 HP (135/746.) Figure in 10-15% more for lost efficiencies and maybe you have used 1/4 HP to generate 10 amps. Not that much unless it is a very small engine ;-)

    But this is a wandering digression that will neither prove or disprove the subject in question.

    Those that strongly want to believe in something that is highly implausible and unlikely, will do so in spite of good data to the contrary.

    ron - please don't think I'm bashing you - not at all my friend. The remarks are directed to those that embrace the 'something from nothing' concept.
  5. rontopia

    rontopia New Member

    dont feel bashed on any little bit. i enjoy the discovery.
  6. GoFaster

    GoFaster Member

    4 litres of combined hydrogen and oxygen in 60 seconds? Two-thirds of that will be hydrogen = 2.66 litres of hydrogen in 60 seconds.

    Remember that we are talking about a gaseous fuel here ... it takes up a lot more space for the amount of energy it contains than a liquid fuel. I don't have the energy content of hydrogen on hand to dispute that. The amount of electricity that it would take to make that much hydrogen (at 100% efficiency which can never happen in real life) can be calculated, I just don't have my thermodynamics textbook handy.

    660cc 4 stroke engine spinning 6000 rpm (motorway speed) at say 80% volumetric efficiency will draw in 1584 litres of air per minute. Even if that electrolyzer made that much hydrogen (which I doubt), it's still nothing compared to the amount of intake air.
  7. Windmill

    Windmill Member

    A friend of mine at work put one a regular size truck. He is about the smartest person I know. He said he would not put one on for anyone else. I took that it might be more trouble than it is worth.
  8. JPM

    JPM New Member

    The only hope that this thing has is that somehow the hydrogen improves the combustion of the gasoline when mixed with it. When hydrogen is burned it returns back to water, and it can only release the energy that was put in it to begin with. If you used 120 watts to make it, the absolute most power you can get back out of it is 120 watts, and that assumes no losses. Other things have been used to improve combustion, such as multiple spark units, cool cans, carb spacers, etc. etc. and sometimes they work. I would seriously have my doubts with this system, though.
  9. BC_MMC

    BC_MMC Member

    I look at the propane conversion on my F-150 and how the tank would fit into the Mitsu... I see the 42.9/L vs 1.069/L for gas.
    20% loss of HP vs over 2X improvement in fuel cost.
    But I know propane burns more slowly than gas, that's why the engines last longer and wonder how it will affect such a high revving little unit. Tempted to try.
  10. Stuff99

    Stuff99 Moderator Staff Member

    ive had my fun with propane to. you will run into the same problem with these systems. mine is that no-one will work on the bloody thing because it is different...

    perfectly good propane powered 88 plymouth voyager ex military sitting because no one will work on it...
  11. confuzed

    confuzed Member

    Wow I have a headache from over info:D but the best method to improve fuel economy is in your garage probably FREE Can be installed with hand tools.Will take about 10 minutes. Want to know how? OK here it is ............ Take a piece of plwywood 1" wide and 2" long fine the area that the gas peddal is the lowest screw the plywood to the floor boards preventing the gas peddal from being fully depressed. Amazing gas milage is improved bad side effect loss of top speed and power, but I only claimed to be able to improve fuel economy lol. Sorry off track but I thought at this point a tiny bit of humour might help at the gas pumps.
  12. Do not know if it has been mentioned (I have read in here something about cam profiles) but setting valve lash is the best way to do it if the motor needs it. I gained 10% mileage and more power to boot.

  13. Ask to talk to Ryan at power dodge he is a mechanic. There is nothing he cannot fix or fabricate from old JD tractors to motorcycles. I can get you his phone number if you like?
  14. Stuff99

    Stuff99 Moderator Staff Member

    i know jamie there. ill give him a call. see what he can do

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