Front Wheel Bearings -4WD-92-98-DD51T-Suzuki

I think that it's time to do mine. I think that they are making noise...maybe
I've read that the service period is 24 months? Not a lot of information in general, just a lot of the same questions with no answers.

So, has anyone done something different then installing an OEM 100 buck bearing?
I'm just not going to do that, I refuse.

Anyone have any info? Done something? Done an OEM swap?
Or, read any threads related to, with a link?

op:

 

Spaner,
Quite a few times Ive needed a bearings for what ever(mini trucks /tractors/equipment ect). I always take the old bearing and go to my local industrial bearing shop here in Austin. This is all these guys do, bearing and seals. 98% of the times they either have it or can have it in 2 days. Its pretty amazing what they have and what they can get. The price is always 50% cheaper than other parts suppliers. But you have to find that store that typically supplies the industrial world. Most of the time they dont even ask what its for they go by measurements.

 

Hey Terry, so you haven't gotten around to doing one of these yet?

I did read where you posted that before. We had a lot of great members back in 07... A bearing shop will be on the list of stops for sure but it's not always a direct solution and I have read that these ...f10 bearings are some kind of special KOYO batch run. I was just interested to read what others have done and have seen just a very few posts on the single bearing, (single-piece) with OEM replacement and one, for re-pack....maybe this is a good place to bring it all together. I did see a brief post with the bearing dimensions but nobody's posting NTN numbers, that's for sure. Even for the rears, member complained about the price, but didn't post the competitive number after he matched it for price check...

I might even just do an "offroader's conversion" on the front hubs, my dad showed me how to do it years ago, just takes some TLC and time but, it would eliminate any future service needs, which is a +1.

Any input to add, feel free...


op:

 

I havnt done a wheel bearing yet but when I do the first place I'll try is Purvis Bearing here in Austin. A while back we needed some rubber seals for a EFI Daihatsu injectors and Purvis had some that worked. They weren't as thick but the o.d. was the same. They cost pennies on the dollar compared to other places. My old daddy always told us boys "there is more ways to skin a cat and I am a cat skinner".

 

Ha, ha, for sure Terry,

You know, if they were like $40 bucks...I'd probably just pay the shipping and do the work...

BUT for a $100 bucks, plus tax, plus shipping, plus tax on the shipping...then some badly designed OEM seals added in...All X2...I'm not paying like 400 bucks to do the bearings...

Not gonn'a happen...

Somebody has had to have done this work in north america in the last 5 years???

 

your bearing ...NTN part #2B-DE07A34CS30/L260

specs and drawing

http://www.autobell.net/2B-DE07A34CS30.htm

 

I can say for sure that what you want to do is stay away from this job if at all possible. It's very labour intensive, technical and expensive. The way to stay away from it is to, have a properly adjusted camber and most importantly, to never remove or mess with the outer CV stub axle. As soon as you pull it, you're going to get contamination of the bearing. It just can't be avoided, the area can't be kept clean enough to prevent it and as soon as it's back together, you probably have about a year before they're fubared. Mine were bad enough to get a 1/16" deflection off the 20" tire with a "top and bottom" wiggle. They were finished. This hub bearing is not sealed OEM. Both ends of the hub have independent seals. The one that you can see and inspect is from the CV stub axle to the hub. Clean and inspect every 12 months, and if leaking, or you've had the stub out, you might just as well get ready to do the job. Also, these bearings cannot be repacked. As per the design of the hub assembly, you are destroying the bearing to take it apart. Everything is designed to be pressed back together in a very controlled way, but in order to do this, taking it apart, cannot be controlled, as to, force being applied to the bearing. An example to show this:
While pressing the spindle and rotor assembly shaft back into the inner ring of the bearing, the underside of the bearing CENTER RING can be supported, and the integrity of the bearing is maintained. This cannot be done in reverse; and so, the bearing is destroyed. The same result will occur if a slide hammer, puller, is used to remove the center section. You're just pounding the race and balls "into submission", you've just destroyed it.

As far as the numbers go, thank's fupa for the work. You're always really good at that. The OEM "original" bearing size is "36mm ID x 65mm OD x 37mm D&d (wide for both)". If you look at the NTN# on the "autobell", they show 35mm ID but, if you look at the Honda forum original NTN PDF, it shows 36mm ID. Dosen't matter though.
I have the OEM "original" bearing number, off the truck..the KOYO "...W". This bearing batch run was discontinued in 98 when the application was changed for the 99. The OEM "replacement" KOYO number "...f10", batch run started in 99, for the replacement market. The W's are no more but, the f10 batches are owned by Suzuki, not KOYO. Same goes for the NTN batch runs, they're owned by Honda, not NTN.
Any of those bearings have to be bought through Japan, direct or retail; from Suzuki or Honda Japan.

 

thanks for the write up spaner and the part number fuba. spaner what did the bearings that u used end up costing each?

 

A few more things before the work starts,

I had three different bearing houses investigating this problem for me, so I know what it's all about now. A "secondary market match" can not be had, and a "hub bearing" is a specific application, considering the side forces encountered (inner-ring-split). There is a first, second, and third generation with hub bearing applications. I knew this but, formula one has been around for a long time. The "offroader's conversion" that I mentioned, is just to replace the hub bearing with a stacked set of single row (single-sided-seals) bearings with a center washer as a spacer, and grease fitting; drill tap insert, into the middle of the system, at the washer. Pack the hub with a gun until it's full. Repeat every 90days, no more problems. (we've never had to replace a hub bearing modded in this way)
Unfortunately, try finding a single rowed 36x65x18, or 16, or 15; same problem. That's why they went with the 36, it's rare of use; and they can control the supply end of their product. Smart, on their end. Milling could solve the works, but it would cost more in the end. The solution, is to use the proper bearing some seals and to modify the hub to take a single grease fitting at the rear. So that the grease can be pushed from one side to the other, without having to ever take it apart again. Regardless of seal failures, water or dirt cannot get in where grease is pressed into the system. If it did get in, it's pressed out.

Terry suggested that I give Jeremy a call @ miniBrutes for the parts. He is closer to me then WestShore, and I like his website. Ended up taking his last set of bearings. He had the seals too but, I did match those in my search. I got a set of 8mm double shaft ribs. As apposed to the OEM 7mm double shaft seal and single face seal, making the difference; 1mm. If I hadn't had the after market seals already, I would have gone with the OEM's. The 4 seals for $30, double contact VS $60ish for triple contact...worth it I think. If you're getting the bearings anyway.
That's why I haven't bothered to post any numbers for anything.

I like both vendors, but Jeremy is closer, so thought I'd try him out.

 

BTW, this is the closest match that I could find on the open market. Same application, 20 bucks.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit11059

3mm off the hub? About 60 bucks a side...:frustration:

NB. I don't have any gripe with either vendor that I use. I just have a problem with the price of the bearing.

 

Hey jonny, I think that they were 89.95 each plus, plus...I'll let you know when I get the bill.

Check those wheel deflection tolerances, here's a sneak peek of what the condition of those bearings may be;





Spindle seal failure...there was water in there...


op:

 

wow yea ill be checking mine tomorrow just so i know what to order next. i still got front diff. seals i need to put in but that r just starting to go bad. i got the seals just need the oil and a lil time i should be just about set for the paint job at the end of the month plus a few other odd jobs i need his help welding on ( i dont have a welder and have only welded once or twice) but nothing big just a bigger battery and a few other small things. i just hope it dont take to long of the painting doing all rhino lining. i picked out a color that should look like what i want even as bed liner should look good then if no other parts like bearings are bad ill be doing a rear locking diff swap once i find one. and maybe some new shocks out back for sure but might have to replace a front strut too. makes a good deal of odd sounds when going over uneven ground. not even bumps just rolling ground and it bugs me so they might be junk. we'll see only time can tell.
but thats for the heads up on the bearing. ill have to test mine and see. im still going to do a power steering to hopefully this summer or fall at the latest. just have to see how the greens stuff comes and goes over the next month or so and then ill be dumping everything into the more power project. i still like the ideal of a sc but i think hes set on a turbo working better we'll see if i how i feel when i got a few bucks in the bank to order the parts.
i also email the efi people again to see about the 38 mm tb. i beleive someone said that was about the best but once again idk yet that might be on the back burner for a while no need its runs fine with a carb why fix what is not broke yet but im dont rambling for now sorry for stealing ur post

 

No problem jonny. Good to know that some may order in advance from my little problem.

In that case, you'd probably like to know that the replacement bearing does come in a sealed form, "Race Seals". This would be a far superior form of the product to be installed. You could call around to the vendors and see if they have any on the shelf but, as Jeremy said, it's hit and miss. Sometimes his bearings come sealed, sometimes they don't. Sometimes he gets a box of waterpumps...---ha, ha, he's going to kill me now..."pre-orders" 私が言った。 "シールドベアリング"！No have shield, no have shield!!

Also, I was going to go through Don but, with the price of the yen, our vendors are selling some of the parts cheaper than he is... He's offering 7day EMS @ 1200yen for small items. Probably another 7days and $20 across country, plus some duty, 25ish....you end up paying more, to wait longer...:frustration:

 

Removing for bench work. I took things off the way I want them to go back together. Some may do it a different way. Back yard tool method.

1) crack the retainer tab on the outer CV stub axle nut. Rotate nut one turn CC.
Used a very small flat punch and 30mm 3/4 drive socket.
2) crack the wheel nuts
3) jack the truck up, not off the control arm.
4) remove wheel
5) remove brake line retainer, off strut.
6) remove brake caliper.
7) remove tie-rod end cotter pin and nut, remove tie-rod.
used 1/4" flat punch and hammer, that's why it's dimpled.
8) remove drag-link connection at the control arm by removing the two under-side nuts.
9) remove control arm mounting bolt from the frame mounting and pull control arm free.
10) remove the three top strut mounting nuts.
11) while supporting the hub assembly, pull the inner CV free of the front diff by pulling out the whole assembly...
Bring the whole thing to the bed of the truck for hub work.

op:

 

Now you can remove the stub axle retainer nut and washer, remove axle and put it aside.

Inspect the inner seal and such,





The seal was OK and lots of grease but, water and rust.
Inspect the stub axle,





Surface corrosion...
Pulled the inner seal,





More corrosion...





Just in time service interval...again...

 

Again, lots of guys will do this differently. Lots of times I see guys doing all kinds of extra work, to get a "clean unit", as in getting everything broken down to end up with just the single part that they are working on. That's OK. Here, I see no reason to split the ball-joint, or to remove the strut. In fact, I think that it makes the job MORE difficult.

On ward,

Back side, pointing out what's what...






Now I set myself up at the tail gate with my 6pack, a 15/16 3/4" thick-walled socket (impact socket), 10" extension, and a very big hammer. Also, I have a spindle catcher on the floor. Set up like this...





So, you're just smashing the spindle shaft, not the bearing. Should take three good wacks.

While all this is happening, try to see how to do all this with a standard press, cause I couldn't.

 

Now we're getting somewhere,

So this is what you end up with,

Hub snout seal was long gone. I thought the road noise was getting louder...couldn't hear the radio...
Part of the seal came away on the shaft, that's how it fell. The front half of the inner race also stayed on the shaft. Now some tell me that it will just "pop" back in, if you were just repacking an OK bearing, and that no real damage to the bearing has been done yet. BUT, you can't get to the back half of the bearing without pushing the bearing out, and the outer bearing ring is blocked by the hub's bearing back stop. The only way to get the bearing out is to press or pound on the back side inner race. I wouldn't trust a repack on the back side of the bearing that was done in the hub. Pretty hard to keep it all clean...

 

Remove the retainer clip,





Back to the tail gate and my 6pack. My favorite 1/2" wide flat punch and very big hammer, and smash away on the back side inner race. Set up, just like before. I did the other hub with a 2" diameter pipe, took the same amount of work. About 50 or so...

Now you could press the bearing out, if you had a support that was the same size as the hub face. Which is about 1mm wide. Pretty much have to mill a platform to use a press to save the bearing. Possible, but not recommended.


...

 

This is the garbage that fell out,





You can really see the dissimilar metals corrosion on that bearing and inside the hub, slight pitting...long over due.









Installation is NOT the reverse of the above...


...

 

This needs to be a sticky...same process as a mid 90s Honda Accord (you did mention Honda used a similar bearing )....I've had to do this to replace Accord ROTORS!!! which need the hub,bearing,axle shaft removed in order to replace the frigging Rotor...worst design ever,as you say bearing can't be saved....perfect write up as usual...

 

well of course it was a perfect write up fuba it was by spaner and its all very useful info for those who might have to do the same thing to their truck

 

Hey thanks guys,

It's pretty easy to snap a few pics in between beers and then organize it all later to make it look like I knew what I was doing...
I had to figure it out as I went along. First side took me 8 hours, second side took me 4 hours.

I'd use the video camera and do a how-to like Fupa does, except that there'd be too many "beep" overs for anyone to be able to figure out what's going on...


No bearings yet...

 

It all looks a little strange with nothing there. Good side pic to show the slider protection support for the front diff and front rail alignment...
Fupa keeps influencing me, even though he doesn't try. Hey, it's all good but, I decided to get the front rotors cut. Cuz you know they ain't never gonna come off of there again. Period. A grease fitting will see to that. AND, since they're going to the machine shop anyway, I decided to let them take care of the removal of the inner race. I could have taken that off myself at home, since I have a clam-shell bearing puller but, I'd have to split the rotor from the spindle because the puller is too big. Sometimes the rotors warp when you pull them, so, cutting them anyway, get them to pull it without the split...makes sense, right? BTB, I never cut rotors at an auto shop; don't get me started...:frustration:

So then, I'm thinking camber correction and Fupa again, I remember reading a post from you way back in 09 or something about these special kind of bolts, a camber correction bolt. You think that I could find that post? Nope...You can link that here if you can find it again Fupa, but that is my solution to the Afco uncut spring 1 3/4" lift that I have. I spent about 2 hours with my buddy at CarQuest looking at box after box of "camber-correction-bolt-kits" with a digital micrometer, found it, the exact one for the 93 DD51T Suzuki. It may work for other years, I don't know but, this one is within 3thou for the 93.





Now, you really should read up on how camber bolts work and how to install them; I did. If you're just going to get the same part and install it from my pics, than you should at least know:
These bolts are a perfect fit. That means that you have to clean the bolt holes and get all the rust out of there and you have to clean the backside of the arm. The way that I have installed them, the aftermarket camber bolt cannot fail. The top of the arm is now supported by the strut. BUT, you have to remove all contamination from the back of the mounting arm in order for the new camber bolt to go to full deflection. I got about 5/8" deflection at the strut mount at full spacing. I'll see what that is when it's all installed but, looks like it will at least help the situation.
NB. I will not be going with a double install. I sometimes have this truck up into the 130's and I like the fact that the lowers are the original grade 9 full sized bolts. Even if the top could fail, it would just sit there due to the force moment. So, it can't fail.
Both bolts were torqued to 100Flbs, techs be dammed...:sly:
Also, you ABSOLUTELY MUST ensure that when you install this bolt, that the "tab-on-the-washer" that slides into the hole is "tweaked" into the hole. It cannot be forced, or torqued into there. While installing, camber "0", 180 deg turn after install. "1" with "-" for install. Then 180 deg to: "1" with "+" for max deflection.
You really should just read up on this, on the net, before you do it.





OK, enough of that, let's get to the grease fitting...





I "bashed" the back-plate out of the way to install, and then "smashed" it back...
1/4" x 28, "self-conforming"...


Parts came in....





Bearings came in. They're in the freezer...

I really would have ordered all of this from MiniBrutes,
I just was too focused and, had bits and pieces coming from all over.
He gave me a discount though. $200 to the door; plus three key chains;

Thanks, Jeremy...

 

wow thats a lot of info ill be rereading that a few times tonight thanks spaner u just gave me something to do at work while im bored.

 

OK, I'm going to say it. I really like these SKF seals. They are as tight as a mofo in there though. I had to really make sure that they were seated properly and I had to use my press system to do that. Couldn't just tap them in; no way, but they did press in OK. The thing is, is that these are the type that have the molded finger. Like an air filled balloon that encircles the shaft. As apposed to the OEM's that have "fingers". Like a knife edge of rubber. These are not like that.





My machinist finished the rotor/spindles today. He ended up overruling the tech. What he did was to use the thread cutter and just chewed the race right off. Since there was half a spindle shaft exposed to put into the lathe, and he was going to resurface the rotor, he just based the shaft, and spun it off. Took like two minutes. Then did the resurface. Will save you some bucks and save the rotor...$40 x 2 ...





Old school. I did everything with a 10" piece of 3/4" threaded rod and a bunch of washers, and one of the old bearings. Inner and outer. Pressed the main bearing, then the outer seal, then the rotor/spindle, flipped it, then the inner seal....





Vertical installation. Can't get no contamination in there. Packed everything full of bearing grease, even the back side of the seals. Installed the axle and locked it down. Then pumped it with the air-grease-gun, 10 shots.





That's a completed unit, just like at the factory...:sly:


BTW, I really like these new boots. These are supposed to be the indestructible ones. The fit is perfect at both ends and the hardware is an industrial quality. Two packs of grease, and even comes with a tool, to spool the clamps. $20 bucks...
Those red-box auto's were crap...
The red-stallions, were OK, but still tore...these feel like a better quality of rubber...we'll see....

 

Ho ya, added...


As far as the bearing search...I was unhappy with my micrometer measures, as I was using a standard dial caliper and using the standard conversion....2.54000...then rounding on the conversion...Standard VS metric...


So, went out and bought myself a brand new DIGITAL micrometer. Standard and Metric to 0.000.

Measured the inner NEW bearing as delivered...35.750mm...
Then the spindle shaft...36.001mm...

Buyer be ware, and wary...I ordered some OEM replacements, but if you're going to do other wise, figure it out, and measure to the N'th degree..."Press-Fit"...

Now, If I was going to go aftermarket, I'd go over, both ways, and plan on a full milling job...but that's just me...


...

 

It would have taken me 20 minutes to put one of the units back on to the truck. Decided to check the caliper though. The slider was seized tight. BAD DESIGN on the right side. The slider lower mounting pin is the DRIVER; 5/16" Allen. The top is the ENCLOSED, so, flipping it up will only result in spinning out the threads from the mounting. It's still seized. If it was designed to have the DRIVER on the top and the ENCLOSED on the bottom, then rotating the caliper would break the pin free of the corrosion lock. Just a bad design. Someone has already discovered this on my truck. The back-side of the ENCLOSED, was cut-into with a grinder but, not enough to access the pin with an Allen driver. Probably heated it up enough to get it off. I just used my Big-A@@-Hammer, and forced the works apart. Remove the shoes, and bolt it all back together, then pound away. Hone and cleaned everything out, used some "red-and-sticky", and found a "backing seal" for the ENCLOSED runner that was cut-through. Bolted it all back together with shoes in place. Sweet...:sly:

Camber correction looks almost perfect. Maybe even a little too much. I'll have to check that when it's all done but, may be close enough to just use the top strut mounting slop for the final tweak. I have to make sure that the titan 489 ATV's clear as well...

Everything looks good though.

Hub/bearing/seals torque.
I spun the main 30mm nut down to the original position, right side, then went 1/4 turn more to make sure that everything was seated. Then backed off to the original position + 1/2 of the nut-locking-tab. This is in order to use some new material in the locking groove to pound-into-place...considering "material-cracking". Tire back on, checked the deflection and the rotation, as a completed unit...you may or may not end up back to the same lock nut position. Check the wheel for rotation. If you can't turn it, then it's too tight.

Seems OK...

 

Noticeable difference in ride/noise ?....I'm liking that bearing seal,very nice design.

 

Haven't had it out yet, finished last night pretty late.

 

Finished the whole front end tonight. Left side caliper plus alignment.

The left caliper was worse than the right, if that's possible. I could not get it to come apart. Tried the same stuff as the right and just managed to get the caliper to rotate up on the ENCLOSED pin, as it is on the top on the left side. Two pound ball peen, and two hours, no way. Down with two pin pound and up with one pin pound, no way. WD-40, and jig-a-loo, then heat to draw it in, no way. Finally got the torches out and the 5 pound sledge. At this point it's going to come off, or be destroyed. Heat expanded/extended the cup, then blew the line. Three full swings and, it came off...in one piece. Which I couldn't believe.
Do not let them get this bad. For those that don't know, with brake shoes removed, the caliper should move back and forth, engine to hub, freely by hand. Basically it floats there so that both shoes can be squeezed with the same amount of pressure from both sides. If it's locked, uneven shoe wear, poor braking, and warm or hot rims with poor mileage. I think this is why my seals fried and bearings failed.
BTW, the SKF's are high heat rating.
Turns out that the line didn't blow. Just the line-to-caliper fluid-bolt came lose from the heat, with the added twist on the line... Honed and greased, pressed the cup back in, added some fluid, good to go. Didn't even have to bleed it...6 hours...:frustration: