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Super Charger Build

Discussion in 'Performance' started by spaner, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  2. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    Addition for you pebble, I've seen a constructed unit from an aluminum water bottle. Drill the holes, one long tube, fill with shot, place wire mesh (screen) into neck, replace cap and plumb into place. # 21 for me as I have eliminated one of the breathers to custom K&N filter but, cannot see a way around the PCV valve. The crank gasses must be vented via pump, of some sort. The engine vacuum seems best, if the crud/oil can be redirected. I think that this is the best way to go.

    Slider update:

    Got one email back from southern Ontario. Joe @ Polyzone is very nice to deal with but, there is no way around it. Exotic materials are EXPENSIVE. Looks like it's going to be the DuraPro bed liner. Cost effective UHMWPE with a coefficient-of-friction of 0.12. Compared to DrySlide @ 0.09 and a few other products go as low as 0.08. That's comparing polished steel @ 100.00. The problem is that his product comes in sheets of 120" widths, but can be cut to length...like 31"..width vs length switch...looks like I'll be doing the full length of the truck @ 10 foot. No matter, damage has been costing me $ from day one. Crank shaft pulley, CV boots, front diff mounts, (bent to hell) oil pan dents, coolant rad deformation, transmission mounts, A-arm drag link mounts (as per previous post, bent-to-hell) etc, add infinitum. Money well spent, in the long run. Can you understand the kind of dynamic forces that can be achieved by catching a 5lb rock, from a center line suspension bounce at 120kph...could end up in the gas tank...

    But, at 90 bucks a linear foot, plus tax, plus shipping, plus tax on the shipping...
    Gonna be like 500 bucks before it's done...

    Anyway, want to have a good laugh? Search pirate 4X4 for UHMWPE...guys are going on the cheap, and grabbing HDPE for their rock-crawling applications. You get what you pay for...3" thick applications being "ground-down" to 1/4" after a single summer service trail ride...

    Oranges are not apples, and carbon is not plastic, and polycarbonate is not polyethylene and HDPE is not UHMWPE...


    Learn that sh!t...


  3. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    I managed to make a deal with the above supplier for a custom cut piece of Tivar-eco. 1/4"x31"x60" for $220 to the door. Just took pity on me. They usually sell by the 10s to 100s of linear feet to manufacturers that make the end user products. Like control arm deflectors for just about every ATV and side-by-side out there. At $300 for a set, I think that I'll make up my own, thanks anyway. Very difficult to find a retail-level supplier in Ontario for this stuff.

    I should be getting it next week.

    Side note for Grainger Supply. They have a US and a Canadian (Acklands) supply chain, and they don't cross product supply. So, can't get any in Canada but anyone in the US should be able to walk in the door and pick it up. I think it was $216 for a 1/4"x48"x96", with all dimensions available, in all Tivar application grade types (1000 vs Eco vs 88).

    It'll be nice to be able to blow through ditches at speed and not have to worry about breaking something anymore...
  4. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    that's not a bad price delivered...can't wait to see the finished product :)
  5. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  6. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    will you have to heat it to curve it like that or is it pliable enough on its own ? I see a high speed water crossing video in your future :)
  7. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    My dad calls it "the toboggan"...we're going to mount it under tension with a couple of herc straps. 1/2" might need some heat but I want to avoid that. Annealing will alter it's hardness properties. This stuff is suprisingly resistant to deformation. It will bend across it's length, either way, but can't deflect a corner more than 1/4".
    As long as the truck is kept moving forward, the engine bay should stay dry even in deep water, deep sand should be no problem now as well...
    It'll be fun testing it out.
  8. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    Yea, the engineering is starting to get a little out of control now. This usually happens when me and the old man get together to build a project. Doesn't happen too often though cu'z we just can't work together. A year and a half since the last one. He's more of a "we need to use some 1/2" walled high tensile square tubing here, and install it with the sledge hammer". I'm more of a "we need to use the micrometer to measure this and install it with the laser equipment". Funny, that we can be so different. Strangely enough, we both enjoy the work, and insight of the other, for two days, maybe three, then the yelling starts. icon_noidea.gif Should be done by then, hopefully...

    moto_0159.jpg moto_0160.jpg moto_0161.jpg
  9. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    That was a retarded amount of work...

    moto_0162.jpg moto_0163.jpg
  10. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    looks like some evil weapon from "Battlebots" bet it's strong as hell :)
  11. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    That's looking fabulous! Can't wait for the test procedure! :D
  12. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    I'm calling it complete. A few loose ends to tie up but, neither of us could hold up for another day working together. It's out'a there...

    The beast has been mounted...


    121 welds and 4000 curses. What you see at the far side is the mud flap, not the diff...


    I was shooting for a "0" protrusion profile but, I'll take the half inch. Stupid steering rack boot...


    You can see a few mistakes in this next one but, not bad. Fasteners to be cut-off...


    You can see here that it was designed to be rotated to flush-mount at the top as well. About a half inch here, same as the bottom due to the steering rack boot rub consideration and adjustment...


    I knew that it was going to be a crazy amount of work. That's why I put it off for three years, but it's done...

    Interceptor 2.0 [​IMG]

    moto_0164.jpg moto_0165.jpg moto_0168.jpg moto_0169.jpg moto_0167.jpg moto_0166.jpg
  13. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    Sweet :) first Daihatsu airboat..can't wait to see the trial vids. excellent job..like a toboggan for rocks..cool...:)
  14. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    Thanks Greg, the caliber of work here is no where near the fab work for your beast. I'm more of a "micrometer" man. It's just a little project, but I know that I love to read about the other builds, in fine detail on this site; if I can find them. So I thought that some guys might enjoy it. I'm getting really tired of the "my truck won't start" (member post #1). I just shake my head. We need a "nubey section" on this site, really bad!!!......

    AND, yes I will be going out this weekend, and maybe post up some video but, quid-pro-quo man. You know that I really enjoy seeing your beast out on the trail. You don't have to go all crazy and stuff, either...just the norm is cool. Fupa does his video stuff all the time, and it's great. You need to get yourself a "GOPRO"...

    Acer, now you know why I was asking about the additional lighting positions...Can't even figure out where to put the front license plate...need it to look "OK"..."Bush Truck" VS "Street Machine"...
    Your thoughts are welcomed, cu'z your machine looks WAY COOL...

    At first, I'm like what? Then I'm like...he's just had too many beers. Then, I get it... just on a fishing expedition. I mean, "he knows it's a Suzuki"....right? Yea right, nice try...

    Just for that, you get to chose the first testing trial...what do you want to see the Interceptor 2.0 do Fupa?

    I'll try to make it happen... Think about it...

    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  15. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    LOL...you had it right on the beers..my brain was on Sapporo and my fingers typed Daihatsu ..who types toboggan sober..lol,but yeah I know it's a Suzuki...the shame of it all:eek:
    I would love to see how far you skipped across a shallow water crossing before the front wheels touched bottom...not crazy fast to break anything :)
  16. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    That should be easy to do but, hard to find. I don't know of any place where there is a body of water two feet or less deep that I could take a run at. Maybe a shore line/beach that is shallow for a good width.

    I'll just have to keep my eyes open on that one.
  17. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    OK, so these are the real choices for the lights, Help...


    I think the small set is too small so, looks stupid...
    And, the large set is too large so, looks stupid...


    I did get out today and also found some water. fupa, it doesn't work like I thought it would. I have no experience though. It moves a lot of water and if you try to accelerate to get on-step, it lifts the truck, the tires start to make mud...you slow down, so there is a kind of balance I guess, depending on how deep the water is vs the kind of surface underneath. It's more of a sumo wrestler than a fighter jet. Strange huh..Also, if I come at it at speed, it just makes a lot of wave spray and slows down way fast, with the tires spinning. Kind of like a boat coming off-step. Not the purpose anyway, but in my mind, weight would transfer to the rears on-step for max traction, but it doesn't work that way...

    It does work very well in deep sand though. With the front manual traction control as well, it just makes it all very boring. Now I understand why sand rails use paddle wheels...cu'z throwing sand looks cool. The truck no longer throws sand. I tried the steepest hills and the deepest sand that I could find. Climbs them all now in very boring fashion. If I tromp it, the super comes on...and the truck just goes up the hill FASTER.


    moto_0170.jpg moto_0171.jpg moto_0172.jpg moto_0173.jpg
  18. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  19. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    Cool vid. I thought the same way you did..that the front on plane would transfer weight to the rear tires and plow across water easier ..you aren't supposed to be cheesed off when your mods work well...lol ..I understand the process though..the design and fabrication ..thinking and re-thinking the project..then when it all works it's kind of anti-climatic ..you are dead right on the lights..somewhere in between the two
  20. Socal Sonny

    Socal Sonny Member

    Spaner, you continue to amaze me with your innovation..
    I bought an AMR500 last month, once I get home from my military duties I will attempt to install it on my Hijet.
    Be prepared to be asked hundreds of questions.. haha
  21. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Thanks Sonny. I'll help out in anyway that you need. As you can see from the thread, 99% of what you read on the net about this subject is just plain BS. Cu'z they don't know, or they think, or they guess...

    Mount it, spin it, plumb it and that's all. I didn't know anything in the beginning either. I had to learn, then I had to realize that everything that I learned, was wrong.

    Like why would you put an inter-cooler on a supercharger system?
    Because you don't know what you're doing, and the guy who said he does...lied...cu'z that's what he heard from someone else. Turbos are HOT, Superchargers are COLD...no inter-cooler.

    A one to one pulley will run about 7psi and you'll have to run 91 or above pump gas.
    Should be fun for you. Just know that you could set it up a hundred different ways and it would still work fine.
  22. Socal Sonny

    Socal Sonny Member

    Thanks Spaner, I have some previous knowledge with superchargers since I helped install one in a newer Acura but my problem lies with the little carb on our trucks.
    Im thinking of converting it to a single injection TB setup with a megasquirt ecu.

    As far in cooling, I have seen a lot of people running inter-coolers on their superchargers to lower temps at high psi. Usually over 11psi requires some type of cooling.

    I think anywhere from 5-7psi should be more than enough for my truck. Who knows how much these little engines can handle without breaking internals.
  23. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Well, I don't mean to tell anybody anything, I just know what I know cu'z I just went through the process.

    Engine exhaust and turbo inlet temperature 900dec C///outlet @ 1/2 BAR 930deg C
    Supercharger inlet from air box 20deg C///outlet @ 1/2 BAR 50degC
    One needs inter-cooler, other does not.
    Chemical inter-cooler will drop 10deg C
    Ventury cooling effect @ WOT will drop 20degC

    Supercharger net temp 20degC
    Turbocharger net temp 900degC

    Above 2bar the net performance gain VS loss of inter-cooler starts to look viable for the supercharger.

    Mega-squirt is a waste of time, not to mention the fact that you lose the benefit of latent heat capture and pre-compaction metering inherent in the suck-through system.

    Just my opinion. Like I said, bolt it on and spin it. I think your only real concern here is the use of a BOV above 1/2 bar. Considering the idle tune, I think that you should be OK without one @ 1/2 bar. Anything above that level, or having a pulley ratio greater than 1:1, I think that you'll need to drop the residual pressure back to the inlet to hold a nice idle tune.

    Just bolt it on and tune it from there. Just easier.
    The AMR500 is a nice unit. Just be glad you're not trying to drop 900C off one of these units:

    Attached Files:

  24. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    I thought someone would call me on that one for sure.
    Just an example of bad information and partial understanding.
    Turbos run between 400C and 1050C but heat transfer to induction air is less than 100%. In fact it is difficult to calculate because of the number of variables involved, and the fact that they change moment to moment.
    40% of the no-load ITT and 20% of the loaded ITT seem to fall within the ball park. Boosting duration is also a huge factor for the tubo-setup. Short duration boosting will run low induction air temps due to the high air flow within the low temp turbine wheel. There is a delay in heat soak build-up, as well as dissipation.

    Don't make the same mistakes that I did. Trying to learn and understand all the variables. It doesn't matter. Bolt it on and change what needs changing after that. If it's too hot, put a cooler. If you want to run mega-squirt, it will work, it's just that it's a lot of work and not needed for a suck-through supercharger. Now if it was a turbo, then your options would be limited to "boxing" with a push-through, or a throttle body and injection type modification, like a mega-squirt system.

    I'd still go with the "boxing". Carbies stay carbies and injectors get upgraded. Totally different applications.
  25. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    I didn't think in your prior post you were referring to final intake temps. (900c) just turbine housing temps. (old SAAB photo if I'm not mistaken ? :) ) You were just correctly showing the differences in temps. for turbo vs. S.C. to make a good point. I would have thought that heat transfer would be more than 40% and 20% though..good info
    BTW have you seen this kit ? http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html
  26. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    that looks neat wonder if that would work on our miis for turboing or sc ing them
  27. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Fupa, I don't know how you find this stuff. That's crazy..
    I believe that the Suzuki is 37mm and that the 38mm unit would be premo with a ported custom mounting plate. @ $600, could save someone a lot of headaches.
    Would work really well, if what you wanted to do was to dial in the performance of the individual components.

    I still stand by the concept of bolting it on and tuning as required though. The operational envelope is just too small to be pre designed as a whole. A custom unit needs to be tweeked...
    Take for example, the ambient air temperature factor, regardless of density.
    My truck was tuned perfectly last week and I dropped the meth unit (timing to 12deg), slider system on, worked perfect; that was at 15deg C.

    Long weekend, out on the highway @ 33 deg C, I was getting boosting ping, and I could see the temp gauge go from 1/2 to 3/4 in about 90 seconds...80kph to 110kph...pulled over and the engine burped about 2 liters of coolant through the overflow can and line. Huge difference in operation and power. Today, raining and cold outside...works perfect again...

    So, looks like I'll be putting some "peek-a-boo" holes in the slider, right in front of the rad. The meth will go back on, with a two-stage delivery system, and that should take care of the ambient air temperature factor; also allowing me to go back to 14deg BTDC.

    As far as the slider is concerned. I can't recommend it enough to any would-be 4byers out there. Better than I thought it could be. Slides up embankments like they're not there, plows through 2 1/2 foot of beaver dam washout without swamping the engine, and slides over rocks in silence. Front-end damage has now become all but impossible. You know how the grass can hide rocks in the center-line on old bush roads and you just cringe at hi-speed waiting for the "BANG"...Now the front end just lifts slightly and no sound...

    The Jamar, it does so many things well. For high speed gravel road control, I have to say that the rally teams have it wrong. It should be on the front. Where they are going too fast to make the corner, they slide the rear over to match the road line. With it on the fronts, it brakes the inside wheel to match the road line, with no loss of rear drive traction.

    I guess I had a lot to say; just put 400 bush K on it...:cool:
  28. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    i emailed the people about the efi kits and they said i would need to find 3 Throttle bodies on my own and they would have the rest lol
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
  29. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Jonny I think that you gotta step outside of the box here. The first step to getting a "that's crazy" designation.
    I know that you wanted to go with a turbo set-up, and this is a one stop shop for you. Ready to spend some cash? Have you taken a look at their turbos? $300 bucks...
    Question is, do you do this stuff cuz you want it to go faster, or because it's cool. I'm in the latter category.

    What they have are PAP ECU units with 2.5bar maps, single point O2s, injectors and throttle bodies, but most importantly, self-learning software for the drivers. Of course they don't want to sell you the throttle bodies, cuz they know that they will not bolt on. That's for you to get modified locally. How does this sound,

    All as per their design size,
    Three throttle bodies modified to be sandwiched in between the head and intake manifold,
    Three turbo chargers, direct mounted with custom header and custom 2" exhaust,
    Engine top mount inter-cooler, induction mixer with mounted electric fan and temp sense,
    Custom air intake K&N,

    Ever hear of a triple charger? Spool-up would be very quick on those mini-turbo-units, and they come with wast gates as standard. The nice thing is that if you can convince them that you can handle the mounting modifications locally, they can build this unit as a complete system as PAP, without having to source individual parts. You could spend $1000 on a brand new AMR500 or $900 on three brand new turbo chargers.

    Hell, I'd do this one just for fun.

    I'd say $3000, all done.
  30. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    i was not talking about their turbo just thought the efi would be a nice and easier tune but yea i know what u mean and thus y i post where u will answer. i wanted to follow what u did with the SC but the guy who would be helping me said turbos would be way easier. yes im doing it to go faster but im also doing it just cuz i want to. i really just dont know what road to go down copy what u did which is not what i want, leave it the way it is ( not gonna happen) or just say heck with it and do something crazy. worst part i have about 7 hours a night to sit and search the web for stupid stuff at work cuz there is never anything going on. but back to the real talk after i post the efi thing i thought about it and gave up not worth the trouble to me right now would rather just start gathering parts to either turbo or SC it still unsure which to do. i dont need the power that u have although if you going to do something might as well go big or stay at home. right? anyways if wasted enough of everyones time for now. thanks for ur input spaner

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