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Super Charger Build

Discussion in 'Performance' started by spaner, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Logic control circuit

    ....


    With over 3200 hits, there's got to be an electrical engineer with a BA in logic circuits sniffing around in here. I have placed an obvious circuit error in the system, just for fun.

    Sign in and speak up, check out my work..and thanks in advance..
    Cuz, yea my head herts from thinking about it..



    [​IMG]


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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  2. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    I'll take a crack at it...from what I can see on my 10 inch netbook at work (a poor excuse but I may need one:)) it appears the issue is in the relay circuit for the high /low light control on the glowshift gauge
     
  3. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    ...


    Been letting you sweat buddy...:D
    But your comments are ALWAYS welcomed...

    The system Will work, just not like in the move....:eek:
    And that IS the goal...for this thread, anyway...

    I think that I may have tricked you with the switchable negative on the "blue" light...remember the stereo instalations with the ground that changed to a positive, and blew everyone's fuses?... let me explain...

    Under regular Idel condition, and "system armed" the "blue" light will be ON, as it will see 12v on the top side, and a "ground" from the bottom side; the M relay...this is a 5 point relay, giving central control, upper (Vac-negative) and lower(Petal-to-the-metal-Atm-positive); under activation; of an atmospheric condition.

    So, under vacumme, the blue light will see 12v at the top and a ground at the bottom; dropping 12v of potential OVER the light; it is ON....

    ....."Peddel to the metal"..... there is no vacumme, and the "blue light" will see 12v at the top AND 12v at the bottom, and so has no voltaic potential to drop and will not "light-up"; even though there is pwr on both sides....but has NO ground...this allows elimination of several relays....

    I know, it's a logic system, and that is why my head hertz...hertz:cool:



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  4. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    Grrrrrr:mad::p That puts MY logic circuits back to default....vacuum=snickers.... no vacuum=Cheetos...:D
     
  5. Harley

    Harley New Member

    Hey Spaner, you are one mad bastard!
    I have read though most of your thread, lots of in-depth info. I to am building a S/C engine, but 650cc aircooled using the AMR300 s/c

    My opinion may be to late and I see you are now using an AMR500 s/c, but I think you have overcomplicated your math and your initial Supercharger choice, M62, seems way off.

    Cam lobe characteristics will play a leading role in determining boost pressure after the blowers drive ratio has been selected.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Harry Pyle┬┤s Calculation Scheme on Superchargers

    Firstly to Calculate "Pulley Ratio" (PR)

    PR = C(14.7+B+I)/14.7xV
    = Crankshaft pulley Diam
    = Crank RPM/blower RPM

    where

    C = 1/2 Engine capacity in cc.
    B = boost in p.s.i.
    V = blower volume in cc.
    I = Allowance for valve overlap (ie for every 10 degrees on o'lap allow 5% of the boost. eg for 35 degrees, I = 3.5 x 0.05 x B ).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't know why you are calculating VE into the drive ratio, or why your crank pulley is smaller than your S/C pulley:confused:

    In my limited experience with S/C they should never be under-driven (turned slower than the engine) all that means is your Supercharger is poorly matched to your engine. The Eaton M62 is designed for 2.5L to 4.0L engines, that is 3.8-6 times larger than you need:confused: Meaning it will be turning so slowly that a huge amount of air will be escaping through it's tolerances, well out of it's range of efficiency. Also consider how much more HP is required to turn these larger blowers.

    [​IMG]

    I'm a stuntman not an engineer so I really have nfi what I am talking about;) For real incite get "Forced Induction Performance tuning" by Graham Bell, simple, clear, concise.

    Anyway, did you ever get an answer to what diameter is the crank pulley on the S/C Subaru EN07?

    Cheers
    Harley
     
  6. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Harley, sooo, many questions in one post, I don't know where to start..
    Thanks, by the way, for the crazy bastard, (buku dicki-die)..I been posting more and more in depth information as I go along in my own search for knowledge, getting more outlandish, I know:D..just daring someone to call me a crazy bastard on this thread LMAO..:D I thought for sure someone would post something about my purfume atomizer....but, nothing..mcgyver or what..

    I enjoy incorporating every-day components into machanical systems that they were not intentionally designed for, that's the best.

    The M62 was not a great choice for the application, but considering availability and oem clutch drive, at the time, it was one of the best.
    Underdriven, yes, hence the 70% V.E. as you say, "blow-by" in the underdriven charger. Which is not always a bad thing, as long as it is understood and compensated for. Spool and unspool time VS boost pressure on a clutched system. More turbo like and less "bumpy", as long as the max boost has been calculated properlly using V.E. :eek:

    Driven HP requirements, IMHO, are too small to even be considered in a practical application. You only need to understand when they come into play. Acceleration of components and under boost pressure.
    Consider a clutched charger that is being driven under engine vacuume in an idle constant speed condition. How much HP is required VS the non charger application.
    Almost NONE.
    Consider a non boost engine RPM acceleration condition. There is a little more HP required to accelerate the charger components, but not much, and the difference in the size of the charger means even less. A few ounces of mass more. The kinetic energy requirements are weighted on acceleration.
    1/2 MV^2...lets not get into that, it means very little.
    Under Boost is where the driven HP requirements come into play and it is also where HP is produced. The size of the charger may, depending on many factors, affect the HP gain negatively, I agree...but again under a HP generating condition it will be subtracted from the total that was gained. It makes little differance in a practical application. For dyno results, I agree that you will see a differance on the chart. Just talking off the cuff, lets say a vehicle goes from 0-60 in 10, we bolt on an arbitrary charger to produce 7psi and do 0-60 in 6.5; what I am saying is that the PERFECT charger for the system producing 7psi might get you down to 5.9....does it really matter. LOOK at the gain.

    Build it light, and wind it tight, does not always serve the purpose of the end result.

    I like your cam lobe over lap consideration calculations.:cool:

    No info on the pully, but I have come across hi-res pics.

    I look forward to reading your thread on the subject, I do hope you are planing to document your build.


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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  7. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Bigger chalenge

    ...

    My buds who know my work, and are following this thread, I guess, are telling me that my work is starting to lag...

    So It's time that I take it UP a knotch...

    I'm going to go all out with the things that I have been dreaming about, to be included in to the preasent system as previosly described.

    The HEADS-UP display, which I have had some previous experience with, and that I have previously posted in relation to the the tach mod, will now be fully integrated.

    The LOGIC CONTROL system is now complete, and all of the integrated systems have been fully reserched. Components are IN, thanks to Active Surplus on Queen W in the big smoke. You guys have some nice stuff, at good prices, 30amp relays for $4.99 and connector harhnesses for $2.00, prices that can't be beat. Helped me out with the UV LEDs as well as the low voltage relays for $0.50. Low voltage resistors were free, spent two hours there, but would have been happy there all day, $65.00 for the entire build, wow...

    Thanks Guys.




    [​IMG]



    NOW tell me that this is not.....A Hobby...


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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  8. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

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    Vacuum driven bench test, one shop vac, one laser RPM reader, one shop rag...490RPM...just about right...



    [​IMG]



    Yea boyyy...:pop:


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  9. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    ...


    First problem that I have run into, the engine is tilted upwards 5deg...which I had not originally considered. My 1/2" clearance between the SC pully and the center mounting plate and seat, is gone. All things being equal, I think that the seat will have to be modified, to accomodate the differance.

    She's tight....:cool:


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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  10. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

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    I hate not being able to work on my projects more,:mad:, an hour here, an hour there, life keeps getting in the way...12 hours in one go seems impossible...



    [​IMG]



    She calls for my attention, and sometimes, I just can't give it to her.



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    Sorry, baby...:(



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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  11. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Eddie...Lives....

    ...



    My muse, and goal....STILL, NOT LOV'EN POLICE...It's the D.R.E.



    [​IMG]



    Finally, start-up and rev check....

    SWEET charger sound, yea baby...:D

    Although the charger clutch will engage for the start sequence under forced induction and atmosphic condition, momentarilly...

    There IS enough "suck-by" on the outer side of the charger rotors to start the motor normally, "belt-free"....just enough...and as soon as it lights...the engine flow volume and speed, "spin-up" the charger INSTANTLLY..;)

    She revs and spins "belt-free" just like normal, with a slight hesitation during engine acceleration and charger spool-up...

    This won't be a problem once the drive belt is installed to boost on-demand, via the Honeywell sensor..:cool:

    I do need some help though guys...
    I took a lot of pre-disassembly photos of the area and thought that I could just RIP the vaccum lines etc. out, as I had thoroughly documented everything....and planned on replacing the old stock with new "food-grade" top of the line 1/8th clear...

    Unfortunatlly, I never checked the photos, and they were over-exposed!:eek:
    The flash was on AUTO, or something, and they are all useless...:frustration:

    I can, and have guessed, to their proper locations, but am not sure, and I would very much like to eliminate any charger pain installation problems by eliminating this variable....

    I would be very thankfull if someone with a DD51t, could take the time to provide me with some HIGH REZ shots of the related vacuum lines...
    FROM-TO...everything from the carb, heat exchanger, aircleaner, intake-manifold....


    Thanks guys...I promise, some wicked videos, hill climbing with diff-lock only, and my 11" wide...24" Titan 489s etc..;)

    You won't be disapointed...


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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  12. Stuff99

    Stuff99 Active Member Staff Member

    we need some video!! need to hear that turbo whine!!
     
  13. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

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    Can't do the video thing yet Stuff. I have a G-Tec DDV-3810 and need some special codec for transfer format, videos won't play "off" of the unit, and I don't have a youtube account anyway...I was saving up for the mini truck channel, but haven't seen anything yet...my time and effort are being put into the unit...

    I'm trying to set up the system just like it would be from the factory, and you have no idea how much work is involved....

    Base-line carb acceleration, idle speed and mixture settings.....3.5 hr
    I managed to "tune-out" the "belt-free" lag time; acccelerates like normal.
    And "tuned-out" the engine deceleration-to-idle super charger inertial "bounce",
    Via the throttle push-pull diafram. I had to adjust it so that it would "catch"
    the decelerating super chager before it choked the engine, and yet, not accelerate
    it back up to a high RPM Via the idel jet.

    Now, it accelerates normally, and decelerates to idle normaly, with no "bounce".
    No "audable" differance, but if you look at the back of the carb, controllers are
    "flying" up and down. Four different adjustments to be put into sync to "catch"
    the idle, at the right instant.

    I did all of this prior to the belt and boost installation to eliminate base-line problems prior to boosting. It takes a lot of time for a one-off, but I could tell someone following, "this screew out 2r, and that screew in 3r"; 2 minutes to adjust it...

    I still have to make 4 custom mounting brackets, to secure the front of the charger and,
    mount the 6-ribbed idler, and "STACK" the A/C unit and altinator, change altinator V-belt over to the four rib and forward crank location...then extend all fluid lines, all electrical lines, custom mill the crank pully, install air fillter in the new location, install the super charger control harness, install boost gauge etc.

    Also, from my investigation, and hands-on work with the carb, I can see that a restrictive-choke-mixture-increase is not the best solution to persue. I will be depending upon the water meth injection system for control under BOOST and need more time to complete the necessary adjustments.

    Total time to completion: 100 man hrs............OF MECHANICAL FUN :D

    Some day it will be done, but it looks like I will be throwing SNOW off of my 11" wide Titan 489s....

    For those that have the least bit of interest, this is how I work; take it from the BRAIN, and put it into a SKETCH, don't be intimidated, cause I can't draw worth SHI*, can never get the angles right, but I can identifiy "MY" sketch with "MY" ideal image.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    Then put it into CAD, so you can communicate with the machinist.....


    [​IMG]


    And the part, comes to LIFE, installl....and thats all....


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    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  14. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Too much PWR for the 12s

    ...


    I've been BOOSTING at 2 PSI with the V-belt on the crank; (3.5" diameter); for road trials, and the 12"-20" diameter factory tires won't even HOLD the road; they just smoke...

    So, I'm looking at some 15" 205s by 5.5", JUST TO KEEP IT ON THE ROAD...

    Yea, I don't have a LIFT...:sly:

    I either get some bigger meats, or turn it off...


    [​IMG]



    Yea, Yea....I got video...job-completion first; videos and fun after...

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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  15. zardoz

    zardoz Member

    Turbo whine?


    um... how do you get turbo whine from a super charger? :sly:

    z
     
  16. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    The Formulation of Sound...

    ...


    Funny, that you should mention this, cause the makuni pump High-Speed Drive Motor, sounds, Just-Like, A Turbo Whine; combined, with the Super Charger, the sound is, Distinctive....Unique...

    Actually, the Makuni pump spins, at such a high rate of speed, that I am considering adding 10% 2 cycle engine oil to my Water-Meth mix, just to keep it all under control; and WELL lubed. You are going to be SHOCKED, at what this MIX, actually is. Very obtainable, and very cheap. Way, cheaper than fuel...

    Ethanol VS Methanol....a whino's dream...GO GREEN...

    I thought that I had the meats put together, untill I figured out that FORD actually makes a 4 x 4 1/4; which is all wrong. The 205 X 60R 15", seem to be OK, but I'm still looking for some CHEAP rims @ 4 X 4 1/2...

    I'm now at the point where every PART is now a CUSTOM part; and must be fitted precisely. The accesories have no room to be installed, and must be fitted, with consideration to the available space; which there is NONE.

    So I had to modify the original accessory mount, and custom design, every part there after.... I'm just not willing to give up my A/C....and I had to go all out cause, it just wouldn't ALL fit.

    I'm NOW looking at a one-to-one DRIVE ratio, on the Super Charger, which, should give me a MONSTER-LIKE-TURBO BOOST; 3PSI @ 3TRPM...to ...7PSI @ 7TRPM due to the V.E. As the engine RPM increases, so to, will the volumetric efficiency, increase, AND, the BOOST.


    [​IMG]


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    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  17. Stuff99

    Stuff99 Active Member Staff Member

    Do, or do not. there is no try.
     
  18. 3banger

    3banger Member

    Someone should make a supercharger with a CVT!

    Patent pending. :)
     
  19. How about just buy a truck that already has a factory supercharger on it :rolleyes:
     
  20. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

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    3banger, nice...

    That would be right up my alley, and I'm totally interested.
    I'd grab the components off of a "micro" "kiddy's" 50cc snowmobile.

    Or, you could use the same concept to drive a main cooling fan on somthing large like a freight liner...fuel savings application.
    I can also see some applications for the aftermarket Hybrid market; dynamic braking, charging system.

    Unfortunatlly, you can't patent component application concepts, It's the components themselves that are patented....not for use, but for sale. You can copy ANYTHING, you just can't sell it, or by copying it, impeed the patent holder's ability to sell it.


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    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010

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