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Super Charger Build

Discussion in 'Performance' started by spaner, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    First one to go over 10 psi wins a :pop: smiley. That's between spaner and binder66 I'm not ready to push mine that far. YET!!
  2. binder66

    binder66 Member

    I hate getting started only to have to pull off a projected days work!
    Got alt and carb pulled from shelled engine, and thats as far as I got.

    Balance of work and home life and toy time is torture sometimes.

    May get some done tomorrow but probibly be next friday before I am able to do much
    Will be on days off starting friday so.....

    Will update and ask questions as things go along.

    Jeff in Wyo.
  3. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    That'll be cool,
    Don might end up with something on a 660 as well, so I guess the guy out of the 4 running the highest boost; wins..:pop:
  4. Don-in-Japan

    Don-in-Japan Member

    Don's engine will stay regular compression, so boost will be limited considerably. Thinking .3 bar max (4.4 psi), unless I build an engine from the ground up.
  5. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    New cooler for the intake manifold...


  6. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Bigger job than I thought to install it right. Probly take at least two days.
    Gotta drop that manifold heat though, before I go to 12 psi...


    The hot air vents out the side of the truck just behind the drivers door. Plumbed to run pre-thermostat coolant.
  7. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    For those keeping up on it, and interested in the subject/application.
    The subject of thermal dissipation, during forced induction, tends to fall into one of two camps. Air to air, and Air to liquid; BOTH, in conjunction with an intercooler, being placed after that which has done the compaction.
    Values tend to run about double ambient for air temperature after compaction, with the inclusion of an intercooler.

    Either design is quite standard in it's use and actually mimics the performance of an air conditioning system; the high side only. However, there is no combustion chambers in an air conditioner, nor is there a secondary compaction cycle; compression ratio.

    In the past, there were two choices for design. Low CR running High Boost, and High CR running Low Boost. Never both...why?
    The reason guys keep the antiquated talk going about engine internals, and how an engine should be purpose built with the forced induction in mind. Stronger components would better withstand a bout of detonation, and not just explode after the first indication. It is not however, the added pressure of the boost+CR that needs to be protected against, with stronger components, but the detonation, due to a bad tune....and the heat produced by the double charge of air, being compacted a second time...CR. In the end, what they really end up doing, is to lower the CR significantly in the process of doing internals, they then have the extra protection from NOTHING, and they've dropped the power potential FROM the high CR. Why can't they run pump gas with both? Because it's TOO HOT!

    It just happens to be a concept that I agree with; it's the cylinders that need to be cooled back down to a normal level to prevent detonation. Not the incoming air charge. BMW has messed with this a bit, and some of the mustang performance kits now offer single or even separate (two) coolant systems.
    The system to dissipate the heat from the cylinders is already there. If we beef up the air/fuel charge, and produce more heat from making more power (one goes hand in hand with the other)...then we have to beef up the heat dissipation system to handle the added heat. Again, not talking about engine over heat, just the cylinder burn environment, where temperatures can exceed that which is safe to prevent detonation.

    Anyway without getting into too much detail in a single post,
    I run 7PSI on a 10.5 with 91 & meth. Uping to 12PSI on a 10.5 with 91 & meth.
    I've installed a custom 5000BTU additional cooler on the truck; adding 1/2 litter of coolant.

    It should be all that is needed.

    BE CAREFUL, buying kits like this online, crazy expensive, for the 5.0 I've seen prices in the range of $2,000 bucks.
    I built this one from scrap that was laying around.

    moto_0320.jpg moto_0321.jpg

    Say engine internals again...SAY...ENGINE...INTERNALS...AGAIN..

  8. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  9. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  10. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    Summer is FINALLY here, fupa knows what I'm talk'en bout...:frustration:

    People are busy this time of year, just the same, I'll keep a running project list, cu'z no doubt I'll forget about what I did, right after I do it...:eek:

    One week of work while waiting for a specialty bearing to come in from CA via snail USPS international FR. A Toyota AC clutch-pulley bearing. 30x47x(18+21) Solves three application problems in one for $50, to the door. ;)

    Additional coolant rad added;
    5000BTU window type AC unit rad with 5/16 copper tubing, aluminum fins, like 40 RPI.:p
    ALL new everywhere 5/16 tranny cooling line. 5/16 fuel line vs 5/16 coolant line...fuel loose/coolant tight; @ coolant connections:confused: All line joiners are of the 5/16 copper, also taken from the window AC unit. Important to note that such OEM joiners, like the one under the carb for coolant return, has a single 1/8th nipple running into the block return connection. By using ALL 5/16 copper connectors, joiners, and hose line; no part of the back-side coolant system is less that 5/16 in diameter. (connection points are boubbled)
    The two intake manifold coolant connections, on the back side (carb-mount & carb choke) joined within 8" of outlets, single feed to carb-choke base, single carb-choke out to cooler #2. Cooler #2 out line, direct to block coolant 5/16 return connector. (cold side)
    Carb mount plate heating, bypassed. Coolant system filled (50/50) and burped.
    Fan box;
    RV type range hood. 3.5amp 12vdc 4-blade. All mounted to the frame rail, with second mounting at the bed access hole rim. Safety-screen cover, made from a utensils rack from wallymart kitchen section.

    Initial testing;
    30c ambient, full warm idle, choke off, cooler #2 fan on. (OEM rad fan, on every 7-8 minutes)
    Coolant return at the block; I can hold the 5/16 cooler #2 line (warm), can't hold the OEM return line (too hot) warm cools down the hot, @ the block inlet.
    Temp gauge down to 3/8 from the typical 1/2 position.
    The heat that is blown out of the side of the truck @ idle, is sufficient to heat a 4-man tent in the fall. Bonus...:cool:

    Watermeth return line;
    The fluid circulates in the system, back to can, under certain conditions.
    Return line plumbed through carb-mount water jacket.
    Now it's for cooling, not for heating.
    YES, I can put ice cubes in the meth can, if I want to go all-out crazy, like the 5.0 guys....:p

    Additional cooling fans, on the block;
    One double fan, mounted between the passenger seat "bum-bowl", and the intake manifold.
    A large volume of air is forced through the intake manifold cylinder head mountings, and down the cylinder head and block face.
    One single fan, mounted under the intake manifold, forces air flow out of the back side of the block.

    Summer plugs;
    NGK "8s", cooler for the summer, gaped to 28 for starting and power.

    System test;
    Same conditions,
    Same 3/8 on the gauge, at first the secondary changes seemed to make no difference, then, I realized that the OEM rad-fan no longer comes on....:pop:

    System wiring;
    For the 4 additional fans.
    Relay control, breaker protection. Diff-lock auto-off system sensing.
    If the little red light is on, so are the fans, if not, then no.
    So, fans are auto-off above 40kph. That was the most "I like it" part of the whole mod..he, he, he..
    Total draw, 0.3vdc.

    I considered pulling the thermostat, but decided against it for numerous reasons. Been visited before, and installed the 160 previously. If the system can now run at or below, it should be fine.

    I think that's about all I did while waiting for two parts to come in for the 100mm pulley.
    Then I just have to size it all up for a new belt.

    So, after all that, I'll say this; a traditional intercooler install is not "better" OR even "as good" as this method, it's just WAY EASIER!!

    Sometimes I think I enjoy working on the truck even more than driving it....but that's fun too..:sly:

  11. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  12. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Still waiting for zee bearing from zee US snailz mailz...

    BUT, I really love E-machine shop software.
    Finally got the parts the way I want them. Now to find a shop that can make a dead-stop key way...:pop:

    BoostUpSpacerFinalTop.jpg BoostUpSpacerFinalBottom.jpg

    I'd attach the .ems files as I go but, the site seems to only allow .jpeg and .jif..:confused:

    Anybody find a work around for onsite hosting for .pdf or other files, besides linking offsite?
  13. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  14. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    Ill have to try it from my laptop ipad says no download no download wtf lol. Sorry I got me a GoPro camera this weekend so the bike just had to go for a little ride hehehehehehe u know gotta test the thing out right lol
  15. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Beautiful part, but beauty is expensive. I wish I could get a research grant or something, and just GOooo.


    BoostSpacer-1.jpg BoostSpacer-2.jpg BoostSpacer-3.jpg BoostSpacer-4.jpg

    Suppose to be his best guy, cu'z the TOL, was perfect. Really nice work.

    moto_0341.jpg moto_0342.jpg moto_0343.jpg moto_0345.jpg

    The part is just sitting on top, it is press fit, I tapped it a little for a test fit.
    Had to cut the key with a dremel. No other way to do a sloping, dead-stopped key.:confused:


    24hr, done...bearing? Still MIA..:frustration:

    Since I'm waiting anyway, I sent the pulley out for an some original custom work. As far as I know, no one has thought to do this before...

    Here's a preview..

    moto_0330.jpg + RearBrake-9.jpg ​ = ?
  16. Don-in-Japan

    Don-in-Japan Member

    Glad I have a CNC mill at the house. Makes life easier.
  17. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    That must help you do a lot of stuff. I'd like to have one...:sly:

    moto_0346.jpg moto_0347.jpg moto_0348.jpg

    Everything I do is by hand, or pay a shop. I do all the design work, then pay a fortune for an hour's work..:frustration:

    Like Jim said, addiction can be expensive..:p
  18. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Vendors drive me fricken crayyzzee; nothing, nothing came in.

    I called the place for the pulley, custom application. "Ho, yea, it's here, forgot to call you". Been sitting there since Friday. So I let him eat it for another day. Not going to do much, just better I think, if I see him tomorrow.
    Bearing from CA ordered June 24. So I send them an email. "Are you guys sure that it got shipped? Cu'z I'm sure that I paid for it. Do you have a tracking number or even an internal confirmation from the warehouse?"
    They email me back with a stock form letter confirming purchase, with a tracking number and a "have a nice day", no text no info, nothing. So I run the tracking number, "Priority International confirmation of notification for shipping July 17".??? Is this a redo? Did I just pay again? Absolutly no information that is actually usable or understandable.

    I figure Trax is right about going local whenever possible, and I did order some back-up bearings locally last week; should have been in Friday. So I give them a call.
    "Nope, I don't see that order in the computer." "Richard?" "Yes, that's me".
    "Richard, my notes say that I talked to you on Tuesday and the order was to come in by Friday", and I give him the internal tracking number.
    "Ho, yes I remember now". He says, "but you never came in to prepay, so the order was not processed".
    "Richard," I says, "you told me not to bother coming in to pay as the order was $8 bucks".
    "Couldn't have told you that, it's not our policy to do that."
    "Richard", I says "you have my phone number, why didn't you just call me."
    "It's not our policy to track down customers for payment, that's why we have a pre-payment policy."

    That's about where I hung up on him. What the fnck is wrong with people? You put them in a job and they become automata.

    End of mini-rant. :frustration:
  19. Jim Nelson

    Jim Nelson Active Member

    Wait a minute! I want a piece of this rant.The drivers side door check on my Scrum broke last week so I went to the vendor of my choice and ordered it..$50 +$16.53 Fedex!!! The package showed up yesterday and it was a door latch...not a door check.I call and they say they will send the right part but I have to send back the wrong part.Another $8 on me. A couple of days ago I decided to bite the bullet and order new clips for the front panel since one of the members posted a source for them,it took 3 days trying to finally get to the payment portion of their order form and then it says my credit card is invalid!!! Every one else loves my credit card but not this lousy soft ware nightmare At least he emailed me to ask if I had been able to place my order,I said no I'll just use baling wire Thanks for the rant time..
  20. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Just like crack eh?

    The vendor is my dealer, and he don't give a shite if the drugs come "on time", or even if they are the kind that I like.
    As long as he gets his money, that's his only concern. Pride in ones' job or service? I guess that's been swapped out for greed. Do you know that I saw a mini-vendor with a Suzuki SP-socket for a $100 bucks!!! A HUNDRED BUCKS!!!
    I just use the 5/8s SP-socket out of my mastercraft set???? Buy one in the thrift store for 2 bucks!!
    It seems that if I end up getting something that'll take the edge off (addiction), I don't complain enough to scare him away; cu'z I might need his services at some point, shitty as they are though. At some point you just have to say that's enough though.

    Propper rant.

    BTW, the front panel? Put your plate right in the middle and run two (plate mounting holes) 5/16s speed screws through the works. It'll never come off and no one knows the difference. "Little plastic dohickies" are for nicknacks :p
  21. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Rant continued,
    Got a call this morning from Richard, "sorry for the confusion yesterday...your bearings are in"
    "Say what? Who? But the thing..you said...???"

    Don't try to figure it out, just go and get them...said to self.
    So, by tomorrow morning I should have enough parts to put him back together. That'll be this years mod and I can start driving the crap out of it again..:pop:
  22. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    = this.. moto_0350.jpg

    Can't be done OEM because of some patent issues or something.

    Balance of parts, two bearings, two clips (3mm spacer; last minute revelation saved me $80 bucks in milling)

    moto_0351.jpg moto_0352.jpg

  23. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Done, 14PSI. 93C_peelout[1].gif

    I don't know what happened to the valve lap loss.:confused: (Exhaust through flow limit?) Once I got the detonation tuned out of it (1-2-3-4psi etc.), I honestly tried to blow it.:sly: Like the head gasket or whatever. Cu'z if it's going to blow, then I want it to blow now; so then I can fix it, now... but, either the charger clutch slips (as a rate of change; BOV) or the main clutch slips. So, the U-joints/CVs seem safe for now, as well as the engine. At least until I can get some hard miles on it for the fine tune, and extra torque.:cool:

    The big difference now is the low end grunt; 50% more (from the 7PSI level)...not doubled. Top end, or the backside of the power curve, is not that much more. Noticeable, for sure! but not crazy; the low end is.

    So, from N/A to 7PSI was a WOW.
    Upping to 14PSI, below 4TRPM is a WOWx2
    Upping to 14PSI, above 4TRPM is a WOW + a COOL (where a COOL=1/2 of a WOW):p

    That's one well designed engine, I tell ya.:rolleyes:
    I had to back off the timing by one bolt diameter. (dizzy M8) for the baseline tune.
    25C ambient, and engine stabilizes now at the 3/8s temp gauge position.
    Things do get hot fast now though. I select the diff-lock ON at every opportunity, whilst "testing".;)

    I guess that the big driving difference is that I have 10PSI immediately now, right from 1TRPM, and then it creeps up above 4TRPM. Drives like my 140hp car. Considering the weight difference; makes sense.

    Please don't ask for video, spaner tired...:eek:

    Ho yea, funny,
    The carb is sucking SOooo much air now, that if I back off the pedal, to say 75% @ 8ish PSI, I lose boost Cu'z so much vacuum is being generated between the hungry S/C and throttle butterfly, the flow is interrupted, and drops vacuum across the F/port. Either an 8"HG sensor could be a fix for smoother application of throttle, or, I could just not back off to 75% pedal.:eek:

    AKA, he seems to like it best now, when I drive him like I stole him.

    Interceptor 3.0 complete.
  24. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    A few pics for the lurkers...

    moto_0251.jpg moto_0353.jpg moto_0354.jpg moto_0355.jpg moto_0356.jpg

    It's strange sometimes. This thread will get 150 hits in an hour, and nobody says anything; no comments. Quite a lot from a search-engine link direct; but you have to sign-up here, if you want to see most of the pics, and A LOT! of information can ONLY be found in the pics.





    ​So, it's been fun guys, but it looks like I'll be going back to work, and a recurrent will take 100% of my concentration and effort for the next 6 months or so. I may get a video posted at some point, and will link here for sure if I do.

    Got THE email...
    AND so, off to Orlando very soon. The adventure continues...Life's a tripp

    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
  25. Jim Nelson

    Jim Nelson Active Member

    That's a big time mod.Jonny owes you a bucket full of smilies...
    Good job buddy.
  26. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member


    It's you that is owed Jim.:eek:

    Thanks a whole bunch for the parts that made it all possible for the stage-3 mod. I can't seem to get anything to ya so, you'll probly get some kind'a christmas present. You won't know till ya open it, ha, ha...(I don't even know yet)

    Hey Jonny, where's my bucket full of smilies man? heh, heh...

    I really hope guys (and lurkers) are not getting discouraged, cu'z really, it is worth the time and effort to get her done. I mean sure, it is a lot of work, but if you like the work, then it is a lot of enjoyment. There really is a very wide margin for error here. You could fiddle with it quite a bit to get a baseline operating system and tune her till you get bored with it. I don't really think that there is a limit. It really is a lot of fun to mess around with something that can really spin the 24" mudders on a factory 0.657 liter.
    That's really the thing, right? I mean, it's fun.:p
    It's not really about the end. I hate the end; I like the work...:cool:

    The NEW job (making money again) might take a few weeks to get rolling, so I might just have enough time to get a good tune into him.
    Just a reliable baseline in him right now.

    I want to update a bit,
    That pulley mod, with the brake lining; no good. Double the friction, sure, but the square root of the force, due to the spacing of the pad and the magnetic field spacing. Especially so, with the smaller electro magnet. I had to scrape it off. Took two hours, then space to 0.15mm. I just happen to have the correct, exact washer for the face plate mounting. Then, it has to wear into place for proper operation. A few hours of runtime. Then some baseline tune videos.
    They're crap though. I gave away the old video camera cu'z I had these new BIOS glasses; well they're crap. Broke them the first night, right out of the box. Have to get one of those Hero-3 jobbies, with the first paycheque.:rolleyes:

    Anyway, going to head out into the bush for some hard miles this week. Tuning adjustments,
    Plugs; I hate the 8's. The 6's are hot, but man what a difference in the pull.
    Water meth, going to mess with the delivery rate and operational modes.
    Timing, when the rest is tuned in, I should be able to advance back to the 7PSI position for the dizzy. One M8 diameter rotation.
    Mechanical adjustments, but pretty much the same as a computer interface. Instead of tapping a few keys, I actually have to tap a part, then lock it down into place. Same difference.

    I'll attach a few vids so guys can at least hear the kazoo, with the baseline tune for 14PSI.
    The vids are crap, but the audio is fine.

  27. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

  28. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    You are really running 14 pis and didn't blow??????? Holy sh******
  29. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    I had some time for a little bit of tuning.

    Dropped the NGK "6" heat range back in gapped at 29, big diff right away.
    Starts first half-crank of the engine again, very zippy, put some more advance into it.
    Very good all the way up to about 9 or 10 psi, @ 20C, for short bursts, 2 second bursts.
    Beyond that, I can't come off the pedal very fast, or Kabloowee; intake charge ignites.
    Too much back-flow between the valves and the compressor. The charge expands backwards, and pulls heat with it.
    The first one was minor, did an acc between lights, stopped for the red, kabang; rattled and staled the engine.
    Turned green, fired it back up and on my way.

    The second one, he, he, he (same day)
    I was out at the dump and did a "power spin" show. 4wd, diff-lock, Jamar...the truck spins around one front tire.
    2nd, gear, 8TRPM, 14PSI. About 2seconds a rotation, he, he, he...
    After 5 or 6, I headed up the hill, and shifted into third, back through 7TRPM, and Kabloowee!!!
    I had let off the throttle fast for the gear shift. Rattled the engine pretty bad, almost stalled, but I kept it running, not very well though. This time I blew both the vac lines off the manifold. (no gauge; 0 reading) and the line ends had been "heat fitted" and "zip-tied", they were on there good.

    So, 6's are too hot, ha, ha, ha...
    There is no weak spot in the design of the internals of this engine; the F6a. If there was, I would have found it, and I would be posting about a "box of broken parts".

    I think I could solve the problem with an aggressive adjustment to the throttle-up actuator (which is not in use right now), or getting a better "racing" grind on the cam, or even both, but I really don't have the time right now.
    I think as it sits, would be OK anywhere from 10C or below, like late fall or winter.

    For right now the 8's will go back in (had 26 on them @ 7PSI) I'll open them up to 30 and set the timing below ping for 30C. Safe, until the fall, when I can try out the things mentioned above.

    It's just hard to stop. The power is like crack; more is better, he, he, he...

    Ho ya. EGR vac line disconnect. No more oily plugs. PCV, still there, for the cross over. When the 8's came out they were "dusty white". Valve cover breather; remote K&N.
    He's running very clean now.
  30. Borg

    Borg Member

    We need more videos of this truck.

    I forget where you lived, I'd love to see this beast!

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