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S83P Won't Start

Discussion in 'Daihatsu Hi jet' started by ftuffner, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. ftuffner

    ftuffner New Member

    Hello everyone,
    I've seen many great posts about Hijet trucks on this forum, so I'm hoping someone has insight into my problem. I've tried searching through the posts, but didn't find any insights into my problem, so hopefully someone here has some ideas.

    I have a 1992 Hijet pickup (S83P with an EF-CS engine) that recently died. Further inspection showed that the timing belt was broken. I've replaced the timing belt, but the truck refuses to start now. It cranks over, but never seems to catch.

    With the timing belt broken, I didn't have a "pre-repair" reference to go against, so I am hoping I have everything lined up right. There is a dimple on the crankshaft gear that lined up with a small nub on the block (where the timing belt housing would meet). This mark corresponds to a dimple visible on the flywheel through the inspection hole. The camshaft has the F-mark (and corresponding dimple) aligned with a notch in the side of the timing-belt cover backplate. Does anyone know if these alignment points seem right? The manual I have seems more oriented for the S100 engines, so none of the diagrams perfectly match.

    Assuming the timing is correct, we've also looked at a couple other things. I pulled a spark plug and block-shorted it. The coil is still producing a spark. We've also looked at the fuel system (but no the carburetor) and everything seems fine there. We haven't really disassembled the carburetor or the distributor cap yet, so they may be the next step.

    If anyone has any insights into this problem (or if the timing information is incorrect), please let me know. The truck was running beautifully before the timing belt broke, so I'm hoping it wasn't completely damaged in the process.
     
  2. starpuss

    starpuss Member

    give it a shot of starting fluid and see what you get.
     
  3. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    It is unfortunately an interference engine...meaning the pistons and valves occupy the same space at different times...when the belt snaps they end up hitting each other...most likely bent valves are your problem,sorry to say:(
     
  4. werase643

    werase643 Member

    before ripping it apart.... do a compression test!
    wet and dry
    and post the numbers
     
  5. When a timing belt breaks on an SOHC EFCS the valve automatically retract into the head. Unlikely you have bent a valve and if you did the engine would spit and sputter. If you sprayed starter fluid into the carb and it doesn’t fire you must have the Camshaft gear alignment off center. Check your drift keys on the crankshaft & the camshaft gear positioning on the EFCS series. @TDC both drift keys will be pointing straight up in alignment.

    Cheers,
    Don
     
  6. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    that's the first I ever heard of that in an interference engine....how exactly does it work though?? I can't see how it could at high rpm...not disputing you..just curious...thanks for the info:)
     
  7. Valvetrain components when initially designed are calculated for possible failure using a kinetic energy formula for both timing belt failure and timing chain breakage. This is one of the design calculations for spring weight. When a head is removed you will see all valve are retracted into the head. Depending on the spring weight (opening pressure) the amount of energy to turn the camshaft belt sprocket the belt must compensate. Once a belt has failed there is no longer enough kinetic energy (given mass movement) to force the springs to open. In other words the camshaft and sprocket are not heavy enough to in rotating mass to overcompensate spring pressure. The Valvetrain will return to static positioning. An example of an over compensating mass would be a flywheel were as its mass or kinetic energy has enough weight of its own to continue to spin the rotating assembly of an engine. Timing Chains on the other hand if broken between the crankshaft and the camshaft on the return run (no torque curve) can have remaining pull torque on the opposing downside. This remaining chain tension can be enough to continue rotating the Valvetrain mass unit the chain clears the final torque (pull) peak. This is one of the reasons dual overhead camshaft engines (Chain driven) tend to suffer valve breakage and piston damage whilst timing belts do not.

    Cheers,
    Don
     
  8. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    I still have to question it....when you simply replace a timing belt the cam shaft is aligned with the crankshaft in their relative positions....then you remove the old belt...with the belt off the camshaft doesn't move on its own...the valves that were open when you removed the belt do not snap shut..the cam remains where it was when you removed the belt...so some valves must be open even without the belt to keep them aligned? does the compression of the rising piston help push them back?.....sorry I'm just trying to understand this as it goes againt anything I have ever learned.....:confused: hope I'm not coming across as a pest ..
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  9. Once a head is off the vehicle the valves have no way to open and under spring retraction pressure will be closed. That is the job of these valves, to close as fast as possible to seal the chamber for compression. They do not stay open or you have a broken spring or a bent valve. Same goes for the Chevy Ford or whatever heads. If you take the head off all valves automatically close as there is no pressure to open them.

    Cheers,
    Don
     
  10. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    I'm still confused:confused:..as long as the camshaft is still installed there is no way for all the valves to be closed at the same time....are we talking head or camshaft being removed...because with the cam out all the valves in any engine would be shut(as long as there is no damage to the valves/springs ,or carbon buildup to prevent closing) ...the only exception would be a Ducatti with desmodronic valve actuation...with just the head removed there is generally equal pressure on the camlobes from the camfollowers/valve springs pushing on either side of the cam...that stops it from rotating on its own without the belt to move it
     
  11. Cylinder Head

    Here you go,:)

    here is a picture of a SOHC & DOHC head with the camshaft in it and all the valves closed. Hope this lets you understand better.

    Cheers,
    Don
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  12. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    Thanks for the pics...I'm sure you've forgotten more about engines than I will ever know..so your info was very enlightening...I have had many heads off in the past and never seen that...I can see how the DOHC with only 3 lobes could have all the valves retracted..and even the SOHC makes sense with only 6 lobes..the last head I did was a BMW 2.8 12 valve sohc..the valves were definitely open on some of the cylinders with the head off ...I'm guessing it would depend on # of cylinders and valves and lift duration.....thank you for your patience.....I only ever had one timing belt snap on me and it was an Eagle Talon turbo...belt snapped while idling at a light and caused a ton of damage (under warranty thank god).......so are most of these 3 bangers relatively safe if a belt snaps at low rpm?..thanks again for the info it's greatly appreciated..I'm a bit of an information junky:p
     
  13. ftuffner

    ftuffner New Member

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys. Between work and the holidays, it's been hectic. We tried the start fluid to no avail.

    We tried the compression tester to no avail. All of the cylinders read zero, which is a little odd. What are the chances the engine blew all of the rings at once?

    It doesn't bode well for the engine though. Anyone know what the cost of a new engine for an S83 runs, or better yet, who may sell them? We gotten parts off of MacTown Mini Trucks, so maybe they sell the whole deal.

    If anyone has any suggestions on other things to try, please feel free to suggest them!
     
  14. fupabox

    fupabox Active Member

    Are you sure you have the cam and crank properly aligned..
     
  15. AXLEMAN

    AXLEMAN New Member

    the timing could be off, or bent valves, pull valve cover and check intake valves for tightness. make sure timing marks are lined up
     
  16. This makes me wonder what caused the timing belt to break in the first place. Was the T-belt worn and fell apart or was it snapped? If you say you have zero compression across the board something is not assembled correctly or not tested correctly. Try this test.
    Test 1: Simple
    1. Put the spark plugs in the engine.
    2. Disconnect the battery
    3. Take off the valve cover
    4. Turn the motor over with a socket set up
    5. Inspect the valve train for proper movement
    6. Check if air is coming up through the valve guides.
    If Air is coming through the guides you need to take of the head and repair the guides etc.
    Test 2: Leak Test:
    1. Remove Valve Cover
    2. Remove one spark plug at a time.
    3. Attach and air fitting to the spark plug hole.
    4. Remove Oil Dip Stick
    5. Turn the Air on to 40psi.

    Check for Air coming through the guides (Bad Replace) Check for Excessive Air coming out of the oil dipstick tube=bad rings (or a hole in a piston).
    The EFCS engine is very simple and easy to troubleshoot. Replacement motors and heads, we have them.

    Cheers,
    Don
     
  17. muiska1

    muiska1 New Member

    I have the exact same issue with my 1990 Daihatsu S83P. Was there a solution to this problem with the timing. Any help would be appreciated.

    Keith
     
  18. maxedoutinAK

    maxedoutinAK New Member

    Resurrecting old threads+1 Same thing here on a 93 suzuki carry 126,000kms . Ran like a top for the last year and half after a new timing belt i installed then just died at an idle. Parts came and installed. New belt. Timing check and and rechecked TDC , #1 on the DIZZY, cam marked aligned with cover. Crank and Flywheel at TDC ( tried another turn on the crank becuase i thought it was on the wrong stroke but verified with valves being closed.) got good spark and ether wont work. Next step is compression test to see if that leads to another indicator.
     
  19. Steve S83

    Steve S83 New Member

    I have the same issue with my 93 S83P EF-CS. Timing belt broke due to wear and from water that was sitting at the bottom of the timing cover during transport from Japan. Truck ran great until belt popped. Planned to change belt along with fluids, filters etc... but belt went before I could. Confirmed valve train components are ok, marks on crank are easy to see. My cam sprocket has 4 makes. The daihatsu logo, the number "4", the letter "F" and a dimple on the tooth above the "F". From what I've read, the dimple and "F" should be 90 degrees from one another but mine are not. There is a cut made on the timing cover at the 2 o'clock position on he timing cover but aligning the dimple with this I not correct. The truck almost starts but clearly the timing is off. Can anyone direct me to the correct position for the cam marks?

    Thank you!
     

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