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Limited Slip Diff. Kit

Discussion in 'General Truck Info' started by Allan, Jun 30, 2008.

  1. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    To shift on the fly : Push the button on the dash "Axle Lock" , it will light up. Then you can shift from 2wdHigh to 4wd high on the fly. You do not have to stop. If the button is not pushed in, and you try to shift on the fly, it will grind.

    You should not ever shift into low range while moving and most likely can Not even do it, without grinding the hell out of the gears.
  2. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    2wd low can be utilized for a number of reasons. I used it all the time in my old chevy and dodges with manual locking hubs.

    Hauling firewodd, dollying trailers around, etc... anytime I needed a little mor epower but didnt need 4wd due to not having issues with traction. It just puts less starin on things, namely the trans and/or clutch. If you are moving around a heavy load and have good traction, 2wd low is very handy.

    Yes diff lock on a suzuki is locked. Both rear tires will pull no matter what. I am sure under the most sever conditions and torque, one tire may give a little more than the other, but both will have power to the ground.
  3. Ironraven

    Ironraven Active Member

    Yup. Read the thread.
  4. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    Yes i ahve. Which is what my intial comment was refering to.

    Spinning tires at a high rate of speed doent really show much as far as the effectiveness of the kits. Most any vehicle you can make both tires spin in loose gravel, dirt, sand if you stomp it hard enough. I would be more interested in seeing how they work (or dont work) under working conditions, which is what would be more beneficial to most everyone with a mini.

    Unless there are new videos showing what I suggested, I see no benefit to having one of the kits, especially for the price. Spinning tires to make both of them grab in loose soil is not very impressive or practical in my opinion.

    Are there some new videos showing the kits used under strain and/or working conditions?

    The best test is to put a load on a truck, chain it to a tree and put it in 4wd low on some hard packed gravel.
    My Geo metro will spin both fron tires if I give it enough gas on loose conditions.
  5. Ironraven

    Ironraven Active Member

    Fair enough. The climbs showed one ascent where one wheel spun like mad and another where both spun... which suggests that the diff locked. It would then intuit that in the conditions you suggest the diff would also lock giving traction to both wheels, but it would be nice to see before making the investment.

    I've used this type of LSD before (the friction-based 1 way) in FWD applications and found it to be very effective.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  6. o8k

    o8k Member

    My application needs are more closely related to rock crawl situations. One wheel on a rock, the other high in the sky.

    When i owned an automatic Transmission jeep, one solution was to just use the gas and break at the same time (for front wheel slip). Not the greatest but it worked... Sure its a little rough on the torque converter, but it worked... On the rear wheels the E-Brake can also accomplish this same task.. All it does is add a little resistance to the spinning wheel and thus gives the other a little pulling power (not much tho).
  7. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

  8. DeMag

    DeMag Member

    I have had mine is some terrible prediciments but if i had LSD in the rear i could have crawled, instead of a higher gear with more rpm and the force of momentum to get me through. (crossbar ditches on a incline is a good example)
    Just today in 5" of snow, no weight in the bed in 2wd it just set there spinning one wheel and never moved out of it's tracks.
    With two people in the cab the front pulls really well and very seldom spins only one wheel because of the weight on the front axle. With only a driver in the cab it will spin out on the lightest side, the rear is too light empty with only single wheel traction.
    The E Brake does help somewhat in pulling it also works in slowing down on slippery surfaces because of disks on the front and drums on the rear (disks grab first). If you set your E Brake couple notches it tightens the drums just enough that when you touch the brakes all 4 wheels grab at the same time, instead of the front disk grabbing first and loosing control of steering.
    If blacktop is the road you choose then single wheel traction would be fine but if you want to go offroad I can't see where LSD (at least in the rear end) would be anything less than a must have add on. JMHO
  9. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    This is probably a dumb question, but how many pounds of force would be at the tire via the trucks power ? Did I ask that right?? :confused:

    It seems to me, from what I have seen and from experience, in loose conditions with high rpms, both back tires will spin. I agree that every little bit helps, but I think for these to be tested in more realistic conditions by observation, it needs to be under a load of somekind, chained to a tree or and/or another truck without the LSD. Also transversing with a load of firewood, bails of hay, gravel, etc... over un-even terrain consisting of gravel, dirt, rocks, creek beds, ditches, etc...
    Unless the truck is going to be used for mud bogging or hill climbing, I am not sure as to what extent the LSD kits would improve. I am not knocking them by any means, just continuing my questioning of them and replying to a few others above at the same time.

    These trucks do not have very much flex to them. For those of you that use your truck in any of the above mentioned scenarios like I do, will find that sometimes, these trucks do not get around and through things very well, most of the time its a ridiculous angle. Its a true 2wd truck with "4wd" .

    Having the option to locking the rear would be night and day, and they are already impressive enough.

    Ill tell you guys what, everyone pitch in and buy me one, and Ill test it under every imaginable scenario under the sun video taping and documenting the entire thing. ;)
  10. DeMag

    DeMag Member

    You don't know me as I don't know you but i assure you i wouldnt make a post untruthful just to add up my post count.

    Every wheel that pulls it's own weight has an advantage over one that doesn't and will more than likely prove it's worth when you least expect it. It has as much difference in performance as 2wd & 4wd. You answered you own question in the above reply, as stiff as they are and for example in a cross ditch one wheel is off the ground (it has the least amount of resistance so it spins first, your stuck) on the other hand if one rear wheel is in the air and you have a LSD then both wheels are spinng that leads to either comming out or digging a hole which we succeed with the goal of traction.

    If you drive your truck in areas that are rough and uneven pay attention to your truck, when it twists you can feel one wheel spin out and loose traction, then you can feel it grab when it gets traction again .... with a LSD you won't feel that situation you will experience equal pulling unless both wheels spin out, But hey if you get that far you wouldn't have without LSD.

    The truck does not have to be hooked to a tree to see how it gets traction. Now if your after wheel hop and suspension issues including traction then that test would be beneficial. Traction with wheel hop is bad, that is when you break axles, ujoints, driveshafts and maybe leaf springs. Leaf springs are broke as the load jumps upward not the weight of the load compressing the leaf spring.

    The only downfall to an all 4wd LSD would be going around sideling areas because when all 4 spin you don't go around the hill you go straight down the hill or at a 45 degree downward. I agree having the option to lock/unlock the rear would be better. It is the same and as much difference between a torque converter JD650 dozer and the same in a standard shift, when it comes down to nitty gritty shoving the torque coverter machine will squat down and shove while the standard shift squats and spins out.
    I'm not knocking the LSD or trying to sell you on one. I'm merley trying to give a different view on the subject of traction.
  11. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Thats a good question. I'm with you... I don't think that its gonna help much except for mud and hill climbs etc... I'm not sure how that was measured either. I assume ft/lbs with a torque wrench of some sort???:confused: This is a cheater LSD that is mostly found in the FWD Honda/Acura aftermarket racing world. IMO its not worth the work to install it. I would just weld up the rear.
  12. Dan

    Dan Member

    It was measured with a torque wrench on a hub puller just after installing it. it's probably a higher torque now that the break-in has happened. It really wasn't that difficult to install. I'm a welder too and i 'll bet dollars to donuts that i could slip one of these together more effortlessly than I could perform irreversable damage to the same diff by torching it. The lsd kit made the difference in being able to go lazily over speedbumps, curbs, ruts and small washes vs getting stuck when i reached the 3" limit of travel in the suspension. however, i still couldn't rock-crawl but, was able to carry momentum through the more serious stuff while three wheels were in the air. The bonus of a little bit more torque really went a loooong way. ...except in the sand, I seemed to just sink faster to the frame with the extra driven power. super low pressure helps that type of traction immesurably. I think you all should just modify what you can, with what you've got, or can afford.. and let us know how it works out. I'll be back out in the dirt this spring and continue looking for a better way to stir up the dust. The lsd seemed to be the safest way to go IMO.

    Acerguy likes this.
  13. slimbad

    slimbad Member

    Just wanted to chime in w/my dime.

    Quote from Dan's previous post.

    "I think you all should just modify what you can, with what you've got, or can afford.. and let us know how it works out."

    IMO there is a lot of "armchair quarterbacking" about this subject. The only hard/documented evidence of the actual effectiveness of the LSD was supplied by Dan (also an Excellent pictorial/description of the install).

    I agree with (like that matters:rolleyes:) a lot of the comments in this thread, but it seems that there is a lot of comparisons to several dissimilar possible options (LSD install, Posi-trac and full blown welded diff) and the expected results.

    I think all of the above options would be effective (in varying degrees) to addressing what is essentially (IMO) the weak spot in traction issues of the Kei trucks - the limited suspension travel that Dan mentioned. All of these options would help in the "wheel(s) in the air scenario".

    To get in the "rock-crawler" mode, I would refer you to Greg's (Most Excellent) build thread. That's the only way to get the articulation needed for the more serious offroading stuff.

    So while I sit back and do some more of my "armchair quarterbacking" somebody weld their diff up and post there results for all to see:D.

    Great thread and nice reading:pop:.......later,slim
  14. Ironraven

    Ironraven Active Member

    FWIW this type of LSD is not designed for rock crawling, it's designed for improved traction in driving conditions that are more "normal" like a snowy day or a mud hole. Thus the "LIMITED" in the Limited Slip Differential. If you want a full on locking diff then you would need to get a clutch-type LSD that has plates that literally lock the diff when put under pressure, and the more applied the stiffer the lock gets. You must replace the entire diff to install this type of LSD. Cusco makes popular clutch-type LSD units for drifting:

    As you can see it's a much more involved process than a simple friction-based LSD. These offer a much more limited application of torque bias. A popular example of this from the "regular" car world would be Phantom Grip:

    Finally, my favorite type of LSD, the TBD (torque biasing differential), also known as ATB (automatic torque bias). Instead of using clutch plates a TBD uses gearing to perform the same action; this offers a higher rate of torque bias than a simple friction-based LSD with more safety and longer wear life than a clutch-based LSD. I say more safety because if you break an axle on a FWD car with a true locking clutch-type LSD unit you will put all the power to one wheel immediately sending your car into the wall. The industry standard in TBD's is Quaife, note that here you also must replace the entire diff:
  15. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    Who is this reply to ^ ?

    It appears to be to me, and I am unsure what exactly you are talking about > You don't know me as I don't know you but i assure you i wouldnt make a post untruthful just to add up my post count.

    I am not sure what was untruthfull about my post, why you took offense or whatever, and if I was trying to add to my post count, I would probably have more than 160 after 2+ years (countless hours) of being on this forum.

    I went back and read, and I am not sure as to what I said that rubbed you wrong, if anything I am in agreement with you, and share the same type of observations, experiences, and questions..... ??

    My intial question, which was some time ago if you will read back, was how these kits would work under working type conditions, and if someone could test them or had any information. Raven or IronRaven asked if I had watched the videos, to which I replied bringing me back into this discussion.

    I know the truck does not have to be hooked to a tree to test the kit, it was just an example to illustrate my point/question. I wasnt insinuating you had to hook it to a tree and floor it making the truck buck and bounce. If the truck had a load on it and was in 4wd low, and had resistance (i.e. restricted by being chained) you would see how much resistence it took to make a tire slip. I have done this with my truck, and the tires either just spin or dig down depending on how much weight is on the tires and hardness of the ground. I also said even tested with a load of wood, hay, etc.. through ditches, uneven ground, creek banks, etc... which would obviously be the realistic test under conditions myself, you, and others put their trucks through.

    My only other comparisons, were the alternatives, (weilded solid/posi track) which would obviously generate different results. The alternative is these kits, with results based on their effectiveness, which at this point is undetermined.

    Thats all I am saying. Props to Allan and Dan for researching and all their work, I am glad somebody has the ability, knowledge, capability to do this type of thing for these trucks and test them. The options and alternatives are far and few between.

    Again, sorry if I said something to rub somebody the wrong way. I just think something was read and assumed the wrong way somehow.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  16. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    I found this in the Performance thread, not sure how relevent it is or how it translates to my question:

    ..... we put a 92 suzuki on a dynojet 284 chassis dyno and came out with 36hp and 36 ft lbs at the wheels. ....

    I know without an LSD kit or factory diff lock, it doesnt take much to restrict the power of one wheel (make it stop spinning) .
  17. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    Good info and pics !
  18. Ironraven

    Ironraven Active Member

    Glad my horde of quasi-useless knowledge is finally doing someone some good :) Now if I could just find a market for obscure movie quotes I'd be in business lol.
  19. DeMag

    DeMag Member

    No harm meant to anyone and none taken.

    The first picture that Ironraven posted in his reply is similar to what Dana used in the early 70's, it was a great set up for everyday driving. Some of the pull trucks I have built we've used a similar unit with a 4 way cross pin and 4 spider gears with great results. Used some spools with good results as well. (no picture)
  20. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think the gears that one would weild in these trucks are cast ???

    I am pretty sure they are not, they are machined steel.
  21. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Most likely it is cast steel that has been machined. Some carriers I believe are cast iron. An easy way to tell is by the color/size of the sparks that come off it when you hit it with a grinder. You could always do a fozzy locker.
  22. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    I asked a guy that used to build rock crawlers today and he seemed to think they were not cast. Ill find out sooner or later ;)
    I always thought they were cast, then machined, until I couldnt find the answer and a guy told me differently.

    So what color and size of sparks will tell me what exactly?

    And what is a fozzy locker??? :confused:
  23. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Here's a good thread on testing the differences of cast steel and cast iron.


    A fozzy locker is when some of the valleys of the gears are filled with weld. It allows a little differential action and also allows removal and reassembly of the spiders without sacraficing the carrier. Not as strong as a full lincoln but serves its purpose.


    Attached Files:

  24. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    Thank You!
    and, Yes, that is exactly the procedure my above mentioned friend was telling me we could do to my truck. Exactly.
  25. o8k

    o8k Member

    Wow.. Great stuff guys... Cool read about metal ids greg!
  26. DeMag

    DeMag Member

    In the past i have welded a piece of pipe between the side gears (shown in the picture) drilled a hole through the center of the pipe to reinstall the pin, as the pin locks the unit as one piece. Unless the rearend type uses "C-Clips" that hold the axles in place if it does it can not be done this way.
    I am curious of the axle spline count, does anyone know ?
  27. o8k

    o8k Member

    i cant help but thinking that there is some poor man's way of stopping wheel spin w/ the brakes like some brake biasing valves or somthing.... Guess that would require stepping out and fiddling w/ and could cause some more serious safety issues if you forget to unbias next time your driving down the road and need a hard stop o8K (end up just dragging a tire)
  28. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    o8k..your talking about traction control..basically ABS, in reverse....prob could be adapted to a mini in some way
  29. DeMag

    DeMag Member

    It wouldn't be impossible, if their is a will their is a way. ABS works off the carrier, a small ring with teeth around it (similar to a automatic flywheel) that bolts behind or pressed onto the carrier behind the ring gear.
    It also has a sensor that is located on top of the rearend housing, that detects the speed by rotation.

    A line lock on the brake system could be used but it wouldn't be fesiable, it would have to be set up on all 4 wheels or at least both in the rear or both in the front, that way you could lock the wheel that is spinning to give all the traction to the other but the old line locks were designed to shove the brake pedal down to apply the brake then switch the lever to locked position. Not sure of todays technology on line locks. I'll leave the light on for ya.
  30. IndianaJason

    IndianaJason Member

    There is, just like what is on a sandrail/dunebuggy , "cutter brakes" or whatever they call them. Or even similar to a tractor. Lock up whatever wheel you Dont want to spin. Not sure exactly how it would be plumbed, but isnt hard. Some type of by-pass system where your pedal over-rides the seperate valves for each wheel.

    Then again I could be totally wrong :)

    Good idea.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010

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