Greetings... I've been lurking here for a while and reading lots of old posts... definitely a nice community with tons of information here! What I have yet to find, though, is what dealers here in the US are doing a lot with tracks. I know you can put Mattracks right on, but I'm looking for snow use and am most interested in the Tatou's, as I know they work very well with ATVs. I have a small (12 miles or so) cross country ski center, and use Ski Doo Alpines to groom right now... rather than get a newer sled I was considering doing what a lot of folks are - getting a tracked ATV. When grooming I'm not really concerned about speed (generally going less than 10mph), but traction and pulling power is VERY important. Then I started looking at UTVs / side by sides, and found my way to Kei trucks, which to me look ideal as long as they have enough pulling power and the transmissions hold up well. I know Samurai trucks up north appears to have a great deal of experience with track conversions, I'm wondering if anyone down in the states does? Also... anyone else on here groom snow... with Kei trucks? I've heard a few folks have tried for snowmobile trails, with various thoughts on how well they work. For the curious (and folks willing to offer different thoughts!) I was thinking a late 90's truck with hi /lo and difflock. Perhaps even putting the limited slip in the front axle too. Hijet "Climber" my best bet? Lower weight is better overall, to keep ground pressure down, but set up properly (less breakage) is even more important. Plow would be nice, but keeping the weight down may be more important. Thank you! P.S. I'm in upstate NY (Adirondacks), not that it makes much difference.
Check out Badgerland's recent posts; he has pics of a late model Suzuki Carry on Mattracks blowing through all kinds of snow: http://www.minitrucktalk.com/showthread.php?t=6373 He owns a mini truck dealership in Wisconsin.
Please share the information you're being sent in regards to a tracked truck's towing capacity. While I will accuse no one of presenting false or negligent information, it always bothers me when a new member to the community here (and industry as a whole) is pummeled by PM's and it would NOT be the first time that someone was given so-called "experienced technical information" that was absolutely false. As a group, we police ourselves here by being honest with information that is shared OPENLY. Good luck with your decision and buying processes.
No doubt! I also think the most valuable part of an open forum is that it's OPEN! Not only does it help stop the spread of misinformation but it helps spread valuable ACCURATE information. Of course part of the problem is the people PMing him probably are trying to sell him some tracks... and they can't do that publicly without being a site sponsor. That doesn't mean they can't share their info though and PM about the items they have for sale.
Actually this individual (and I'll let him respond if he wishes) noted he thought it would work, but asked where I was specifically in NY in case he could work out a Demo. I felt it was a bit too far, but recommended he post to Koz's snow grooming links, as there are folks in MI and WI (closer to his location) that groom cross country skiing and snowmobile trails and might be very interested in a demonstration. No word as to type of tracks (I noted Tatou at the moment seemed to have the best chance due to their size (2400 inches vs. 2000 for Mattracks).) If any of you have other ideas or experiences, please post away! Thank you!
IIRC ski trail groomers aren't all that heavy/difficult to pull are they? Do you know what the resistance would be for the groomer you have? I'd say that would be important information to have so that people could tell you if X brand of tracks is rated for that amount of torque.
Really has nothing to do with torque (assuming machine can handle it) - it is all about flotation. If the drag (groomer) you are pulling can't cover your tracks (the machine is sinking in more than the drag can renovate) it doesn't work. ATVs with Tatou Tracks are becoming VERY popular vs. snowmobiles as they have better traction, and can turn far better when pulling. The drags most would pull with a mini truck would be the same size - most weigh 200-500 lbs (with most 300-400), but with the knives up a person can pull them along groomed snow. In terms of the drag it creates with knives down, a lot. Not sure I've ever seen a measure of it, but a utility snowmobile or ATV can handle it fine. From all the reading I've done here I take it Tatou does not make a track for Kei trucks, and the tracks, as well as the truck, must be modified quite a bit to make them fit. I've been impressed by reading Darcy's (Samuri Trucks) page, posts, and videos, but he's not in the US, so I was hoping someone down here might be doing something similar. If the price is right I'd think there would be quite a market for them, as most centers put 10k down on a new work sled every few years, and hope to eventually purchase a snowcat (generally used) for 20-80k. Thanks!
Well, I do know that mattracks are substantially heavier than Tatou tracks... and in the comparison I have seen on youtube they Tatou's have better traction and flotation. I'm not aware of any long-term durability reports or anything of that nature though. Tatou vs mattracks on atv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQh2FYwjUyg mattracks vs tires on a hummer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkleAMR3IyI&feature=related Badgerland also said that the snow was from 10-16" in his video if memory serves... and he didn't sink in too far. If flotation is really the only issue you can calculate total weight vs track surface area and get a decent idea of what you'd be looking at; I can't imagine it'd be any more weight than some tractors I've seen grooming trails with tracks but I could be mistaken.
vs the tractors some snowmobile clubs use you are very correct - their ground pressure is MUCH heavier. For a lot of club trails, and for ski trails, the equipment does not pack the trail as densely. A superbly groomed snowmobile trail will set up almost like concrete - it is HARD and a miserable surface to ski on. I have run the calculation route, and it's a toss up at this point as to whether or not it would be OK. 1psi or over seems to be too heavy, that much I've determined. What works well (Skandic, or ATV with tracks is about 0.45psi). Other sleds that work well (VKpro, etc...) may approach 0.6psi Assuming a fully loaded (fuel, operator, tracks) Kei truck is 2000 lbs, track surface for Tatou UTV is 2500 or so... so we're talking 0.8psi. I thought I'd read Mattracks was coming out with a 3000 square inch version, but i've yet to find it again. The big alpine snowcats (and small Cross Country and utility snowcats) typically are under 0.2 psi. The other concern is the transmission - snowmobiles and ATVs variable belt transmission works really well in this application. I'm not sure how a manual (especially the clutch) would hold up, or how well shifting gears would work (realizing the drag is a giant brake). The added gearing from the tracks would no doubt help on the gearing side at least power wise.
FWIW you can get mini trucks with auto transmissions... When I was on the ski team in HS we used a dual-tracked snowmobile to groom with and that sumbitch was HEAVY let me tell you... I had to pull it out of snowbanks a couple of times lol. I don't know what the pressure on the trail was though.
You remember those old beasts? That's what i use now Ski Doo Alpine I and Ski Doo Alpine II's. Alpine I dry weight is 643, call it 850 with me and gear...just under 0.4psi Alpine II dry weight is 765(seems A LOT heavier!), call it 970 with me and gear... about 0.44 psi I know the new Kei trucks coming in have autos, but haven't found much about older (late 90's, early 2000's) ones, or how durable they are.
Yep, we had an AlpineII and it was a huge POS lol. I'd imagine that once you got your truck going the momentum of the vehicle itself would keep it from jerking to a halt during gear shifts. Besides, after you got moving at grooming speed you wouldn't have to shift until it was time to stop altogether right? Anyway, I estimate equipped with tracks that your truck would weigh just about 2000 pounds.according to their website you should average 1872 sq in of track at any given moment (min 1560 max 2184) which gives you an average of 1.06 psi. So mattracks probably won't work for you. http://www.litefootatv.com/html/litefoot_m3_specifications.htm
I have read various posts that state that Mattracks are heavier than Tatou tracks but I cannot find any facts to support this. I know that ground pressure per square inch is greater on the Mattracks but specs show that UR or M3 Mattracks weigh 95-98 lbs ea and Tatou 4S UTV tracks weigh 95 lbs on the front and 112 lbs on the rear.
Interesting, I'm finding the same thing when I search for the Tatou tracks. TS this might interest you: Tatou snow only tracks Your truck would weigh in at 1900 pounds (since these are 100 pounds lighter than either the Mattracks or the Tatou 4S) and have a 2400 sq in footprint for a relatively light .79 psi on the trail. I'm thinking you could do things like remove the bed and replace it with something lighter too (like an expanded metal flatbed or something?) to make your truck weigh less. Just a thought.
Also you need to calculate the weight distribution. Empty the weight is probable 80% in the front of the truck so your pressure is higher on the front tracks that the average you are indicating. So you still have about 1.26psi on the front tracks. Wheere the Tatou is using a longer rear track the mini truck needs that in the front and not the rear of the truck. But I could be wrong. regards,
There is weight on the back too (as pressure from the drag) - though that might help balance the vehicle, it sounds like the pressure is way to heavy on the front (even worse with a plow I imagine). I hadn't realized they were so front end heavy. Thanks for all your thoughts and replies! Hopefully something will get figured out, or someone will be a guinea pig
I don't think that's the case. If the weight was 80% on the front the trucks would be extremely dangerous. Any vehicle that had that kind of weight distribution would barely be able to move down the road, especially with it being rear wheel drive.
As I said I could be wrong...But, with that calculation the back of a truck weighs about 300 to 340 lbs empty. with one other person I can lift the back of a mini truck off the ground. So I just figured I probable can't lift over 150 to 170 lbs by my self.
... 3 friends of mine and I lifted (and carried) a geo metro to "park" it between two buses. They weigh in at 1650 pounds, and we were aged between 15-17 at the time. Nope, not the football team either; try the cross country team lol... so think skinny nerds. That's about 412 pounds each; I think a healthy adult could easily lift more than 170 pounds.
same questions Hi, I too do snow grooming for a cross country ski area inthe Hudson valley, NY. We use 4 stroke snow mobiles and 1 two stroke sled. A mini truck would be nice because the operators has some protection from the cold and easier on the body. I thought about a UTV or a mini truck. The problem with our area is that we have road crossings and sharp turns which are not easy with a sled. A mini truck would be better i think? Did you find any other info or have you purchased some thing yet? A snow cat would be great but the price is just to much. Atleast with a mini truck you could use it in all 4 seasons.
I ended up getting a Yamaha Grizzly 700 and putting Tatou 4s tracks on it - the minitruck would have been a little too wide fro the drags I have. LOTS of discussion over on Koz's snow grooming links board. ABR tested a new Suzuki with Tatou tracks and was very impressed. If I had been in the market for a new drag at the same time (and a little trail work I would have gone that route in a heartbeat. Steering will DEFINITELY be better than a sled. Downside is fuel economy and top end speed. Upside is better traction, steering, and operator comfort.
Couch,, When I tested this Suzuki at ANR Trails in Iron River, MI, it got 10.89 mpg under load. According to Yoopergroomers tests (groomingtalk.com), the SWT550 got 4.5, SWTV800 12.8, VKPro 9.2, Alpina Sherpa 8.5, and Polaris IQ WT 8.8. Top end speed ... I'm not sure under load. I know they had to be in 1st lo range on their steep hills but could groom in 3rd on the flat.
Yup! Yup, and it is ABR Trails. He has some video of it too in one of the grooming video's they sell. I would get one of your minitrucks before even considering a UTV like the Rhino. Mileage is indeed good (should have said that), just not quite up there with the SWT V800 for instance. Once my grizz is broken in I'll have to do a test - right now it's about 1 gallon an hour... much better than my old Alpines at least! If my trails keep expanding and I get a 9' Ginzu Groomer I'll be calling you Edited to add - you can not underestimate the handyness of having a blade when grooming - both for minor trail leveling and taking care of those banks at road crossings. Worth every penny!
