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Desperately need tuning help!

Discussion in 'Suzuki Carry' started by rstickley, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. pepci

    pepci Member

    Yes I realize that, but a rock can and does cause these types of things to occur. I don't spend all my time on here as I run a business and such but when I can I take a peek and see whats going on here. It sure souinds like the same thing I was going thru but I found the rock before doing all the other stuff he has.Just wanted to see if maybe his problem can be cured as easily as mine was. There is alot of good folks here with alot of good advice but once in awhile someone has a problem that is easily overlooked and blamed on something else so I say when all else fails check the easy stuff first.

    1991 Suzuki Carry / Plow Truck
    2002 Suzuki H/L With DL
    I use the older truck for plowing and work and my new truck is used for playing in the woods with all my Rhino friends.I have Superlined both trucks for durability and no scratches.
     
  2. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    No rock! Inspected EGR valve and it seems to be clean and operating properly. Any other ideas out there?
     
  3. pepci

    pepci Member

    I thought it was worth a look. Hope you get it figured out.
     
    Ap619 likes this.
  4. arguex

    arguex New Member

    hi mr spanner can i borrow you pls i need diagram for vaccum hose for f10aengine sk410vt
    model pls help i have started a therad about it
     
  5. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Sure, if you had read through this thread you would have seen fupa's find @ post #26. He has found an .ru link that is very good for this kind of information.

    Take your original vin # and put it in the search engine on the site.
    (not just for carry model)
     
  6. arguex

    arguex New Member

    i look on the ru link sir but still no luck .ru are all 500cc up to 800 as i recall
     
    Martin Fornage likes this.
  7. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    Another great day wasted on this damn little thing! Spent all day looking over everthing and trying different things to see if I can get it to run right. One thing I found is that on the #1 vacuum port, which is connected to the throttle up actuator, only has about 3cm of vacuum at idle and drops off just a tiny bit when throttled up. I checked this because I was studying the operation of the actuator and found that it did not move at all. If I pulled a manual vacuum on it, it operated and held so then I moved to the vacuum source and found this. I pulled carb off and and checked all passages and everything was clear and clean. Can someone explain the operation of the throttle up actuator and why I may be getting such low vac when it is supposed to be much higher??? :confused: I think this may be my whole problem! Also, when adjusting the timeing, do I leave the vac line on or disconnected and plugged?
     
  8. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Not wasted, keep plugging away and soon, you'll have it figured out.

    A cupple things to say, looks like you may be on to something. A bad gasket maybe. Sounds like your line vacuum has already been lost before you open the throttle. Gasket, or even maybe line crack. I can tell you that I don't even use the actuator on my setup, but I removed that information from my instructions, cu'z it's more complicated than is necessary. But, you could just plug the line and adjust the #3 screew for the full time static position of the lever....

    This does not solve your mistery though, you need to figure that out anyway. Maybe you don't want to hear this but, is it possible that something went amiss while you had the carb apart?....I would look at this...

    Also, an improper vacuum on this controler would explain your unwwanted idle conditions perfectly, acting just like a cracked diafram, but you already said that it will hold a vacuum.

    Make a NEW carb mounting gasket, and install with some "high tack", a good place to start anyway, cu'z the F port "line tracks" through the casing mount and a bad mounting gasket is all you need to cause this.;)
     
  9. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    What material should I get to make the gasket out of?
     
  10. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Any auto parts store will have roles of gasket material, very cheap. They will also carry "high tack". It's a spray on sealer, kind of like spray paint but will not ever dry, so seals can shift and compress and will always still seal...also seal can be removed and replaced multiple times after application.
    Use your carb spacer to make two seals, clean all four surfaces really well, and bolt it back together.

    Less than $30 bucks to eliminate that problem.
     
  11. the pou

    the pou Member

    idle problem

    I had the same idle problem after I rebuilted my Carb.the throtle-up prevent the ingine
    From stalling between the time the chooke is fully open, and the ingine reach full temperature. I just had to increece my throtle-up screw to solve my problem.
    You already narrowed your problem tho the F-port on your Carb.
    The f-port on these Carb is just a Chanel on the face of the Carb plate that connect the port to a pin-hole at the bottom of the throtle plate.
    Like Spanner said, you could have a leak from your gasket, but be careful, if you use a gasket that is too soft, it will compress and block your Chanel when you tight your bolts.if you use gasket glue,you can also restrict the vacuum flow. (That could be your problem)

    To make sure that there is no blockage,after you bolt the Carb,unplug the vacuum line
    And spray some Carb cleaner inside the port. You should see the cleaner squirt inside
    The car near the throtle valve.
    Finally, when you do the final idle tuning, make sure your EGV seat is carbon free,so it closes completely.check your intake hot air bypass(vacuum valve,air duct,etc.)this will help to have a south idle before the motor is at it,s running temperature.
    Good luck
     
  12. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    the pou, again you make some very good points. Sometimes it's hard to know how much detail is needed (from me) when explaining something that I have already done. Like the gasket compression. If you torque the carb down as hard as you can you run the risk of partial blockage of the channel and negate the whole reason for using the high tack in the first place. "one hand tight"
    Application of high tack...just a light coat on both sides of the gaskets only. (colour change)
     
  13. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    Started the day off with church and prayed for that replacing the gaskets would help. Stopped by the parts house on the way home, got gasket material and tackey stuff. Carefully cleaned spacer and made new gaskets. I was getting excited cause I just knew this was it. Got it all back together and no change.:frustration: Big let down again. Let it warm up and took it for a drive. Runs great once warm. I then came in and read the latest post from you guys. I inspected the old gasket to see if it would restrict or block the flow of the vac and it didn't look like it would have. I will try to spray cleaner in it and look in the bore to see if it comes out. Also, the "Throttle Up Screw" was mentioned, is this screw different from the idle adjustment screw? If so, which one is it?

    Timing-Vacuum line off or on when setting?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  14. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    After thinking about the operation of the throttle up actuator, I am confused. If it is connected to F(#1) vac port which has high vac at idle and drops off with rpm increase, then it seems that the operation of the actuator would be oposite of what you would want. When vac is applied to actuator, idle would decrease.:confused: Am I overthinking this? I have not had a chance to see why I do not have vac at F(#1).
     
  15. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Yes, you are over thinking it.
    The throttle up actuator has a few functions during operation, but during idle, it is ment to move to the lowest point possible, Its base, and low idle setting position at full vacuum. At high RPM to throttle off, it is ment to prevent the butterfly from snaping shut and causing backfire; it idles down with an increase in vacuum/decrease in rpm. Also, pre sets throttle position for pre start.

    Anyway, last idea for you besides tearing into the carb.
    After getting my carb back from the shop, being clean now, I noticed that the F port plug, at the bottom of the ventury, actually goes right through the casting. It is possible that you have a leak in the plug. Take a look at the pic and spray some starter fluid in there to check for vacuum leak...

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  16. dixx168

    dixx168 New Member

    hey guys i just thought id ask a question regarding my carb configuration...
    i have the 3+2 carb and i got all the details but theres 1 thing in the vacuum hose that desperately need to know where would it be connected.
    if you see my attached photo, i have this configuration followed on the .ru website but the number 2 hose is not listed.. please advise where should i connect it?
     

    Attached Files:

  17. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    I noticed that too when looking that up. You almost found everything though...;)
    It's just that the right side of the pic(left side of the system) is missing from that particular configuration. Same series though...I'll just go get it.

    NB. P1 sketch added, 2wd, MT VS the 2wd, AT

    Now I bet that you're going to say that you don't have the second controler, right?
     

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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  18. dixx168

    dixx168 New Member

    thanks spanner.. i think i just have to make a "T" for port 1 & 2. since on your attached pic, i dont have the part no. 18570A and 95551 on my carry... im just wondering why japan made dont have a standard configuration.. hehehe.. just a thought..
     
  19. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    No, no, you don't want to do that. I was just confirming that you were missing those parts.
    The "rub", is that for some reason you ended up with a carb on your truck with the dual vsv controler. This is just the acc-increase actuator, for the cooling fan and head lights etc. Brings up RPM's under alt load.
    Anyway, just use the "outter" conection, check it with a hose(mouth vacuum) and leave the other one unconnected...YOU only need this one.
     
  20. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Just wanted to add a few more points, that was fun...:pop:

    You will now be able to remove your choke (85% position) "lock-wire" system...:D...Didn't think I noticed that hmmm.

    You had the choke line vacuum running through the acc controler and actuation system, looped through.....you must have had some wierd ass running issues...:sly:

    I also noticed that your distributor line restrictor has the black side towards the distributor, mine is opposite and rstickley was looking into this last time he posted. His was your way I think, not sure what he found out.

    Carb adjustments on page two. Choke adjustment in "choke idle is too high" thread.
     
  21. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    Spent the last two nights trying and testing different things. Pulled carb off again and inspected all vac ports and passages and all were clear and free flowing. Checked new gasket and it still looked good but made a new one anyway and made sure not to tighten carb down too tight. While I was messing with all this, I went ahead and cleaned egr valve. BTW, I checked the restrictor for distributor. You can freely suck from the white side and it is restricted on the black side so I hope I have it installed correctly. I checked vac at all 5 ports and got the following:

    1) 5cm at idle and drops with rpm increase
    2) 1cm at idle and increase to 18cm w/ rpm increase
    3) 44cm at idle and drops with rpm increase
    4) 30cm at idle and drops with rpm increase
    5) 9cm at idle and increase with rpm increase

    After checking that, I got out the starting fluid and checked for leaks. I did find leaks where the throttle shaft goes through the body on both sides but no other leak. (funny cause I checked those areas good with propane and showed no signs) I know that a leak is a leak but both of these(each side of carb) did not seem to be very bad as I had to spray a lot to get a sign. I also checked the plug at the bottom of carb and did not find a leak. Now, with these readings, I am more confused. Come on spaner, I know you can tell me what to do.
     
  22. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Yea, why don't we ask dixx168 to test his vac ports, since he has the 3+2.
    Get some comparison numbers. He's working on it right now anyway.
    My carb is going on soon, and I'll check those numbers on mine with the 2+3.

    Then we can compare all those numbers in one spot...
     
  23. the pou

    the pou Member

    vacuum port

    My Carb is a 2+3, and if you look at the graph on my drawing in post #14 in this thread,
    You will see what I got when I tested each ports with a vacuum guadge and a tac.
    It is pretty much the same as the graph in spanner,s post #35.
    From what I can see,only one port should have a drop in vacuum as the rpm goes up.
    On a 2+3 or a3+2.
     
  24. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    I agree the pou. I had previously checked my ports manually, checking with a honeywell sensor (N.C.) vacuum switch for the SC clutch.
    It requires a high vacuum at idle to open the switch, desengageing the clutch, loss of vacuum returns switch to N.C. and engages the clutch. Only one port worked, as was expected.
    Let's set a standard for the desctiption, to remove any confusion.
    When we are talking about a decrease or an increase, we are talking about "vacuum". Test gauges are set-up in many different configurations, and it is possible to describe this backwards. A decrease in vacuum is a decrease in "sucking power". Depending on the gauge, this may be indicated as an "increase" or a "winding-up" of the gage. Calibrate any gauge by first connecting to the intake manifold port directly. The highest vacuum, will be indicated at idle, as rpm is increased, vacuum will be lost or decrease. The gauge on my panel, to show this, turns clockwise.
     
  25. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    I used a plain ole vac gauge. At high vac, it moves counter-clockwise and when it decrease, it moves back toward 0 which would be clockwise. Any ideas what I should do with this thing? I am ready to finish it so I can get back to my project; putting a 5.3lt and 4L60E in a '82 Jeep Scrambler.
     
  26. dixx168

    dixx168 New Member

    hey guys, i'll get the results of the VAC ports after i get on hold of my vacuum gauge..
    just want to give an update to my query last time... i have routed all the vacuum lines and double checked them and it runs perfectly.. and its 100% that the one in .ru website is accurate... the only thing that i'm concerned about is everytime i turn on headlights, radiator fan... it seems that my engine auto acc-idle is not responding.. my engine rattles and once the fan and headlights if off then engine goes back smoothly... any advise as to what to check? do i need to buy an accessory to make my auto acc rev up working at low alt charging.. please advise...
     
  27. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    If I can find a test tach to use I will retest all my vac port readings. I tried a 6 cyl tach, divided by 2, tried multipling by 2 and nothing looked close to accurate so I gave up on that idea.
     
  28. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Taxes are done, so I'll be heading back to the snow bank to do some more stuff. I haven't forgot, just haven't gotten there yet.
    dixx168, I'd like to see those number too. Like I mentioned the last time, you should check the acc actuator on the carb for a cracked diafram...just stick a line on the connector at the carb and use "mouth vacuum" to see if it actuates and "holds" for at least half a minute. If not, TEST the other port, and connect to that one if it is OK.
    If that's not it, you'll be looking down the line for a leak in the switch or the line in between. Obviously no leak from the manifold, as the switch is turning off vacuum and engine returns to what you want.

    Failing all that, did you turn up the rpm with the actuator in the first place? With the adjustment screew...
     
  29. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Ah ha, ha, haa.

    So you guys are going to find this funny. I finally got around to that dizzy vacuum line restrictor. After this thread's routing solution, dizzy and EGR lines were reverced, fixed that. Did some other stuff, and then read up on vacuum advance/retard theory and application, so that I would be prepared to figure it out. Got to it today and, not only is that not a restrictor, but I had it backwards. The black side goes to the dizzy side, and it is a check valve.
    Shook my head a few times, and remembered that sometime in the past I put a timing light on it and didn't have a plug for the line handy, so I just reverced the check valve. Never did put it back the right way around.
    I had just about tuned out all of the WOT-snap lag, and I find out today that I've been driving around with 0 vacuum advance. Well, It's snappy now.
    I always seem to end up with the best results, I just go about it the hard way.:eek:
     
  30. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    ...

    Secondary adjustment for the VSV controler, adjustment #7.



    [​IMG]



    If you run out of adjustment screw throw, this adjustment moves the pin backstop, CCW=more throw, CW=less throw. This is used to allow the main adjustment screw to be clear of the perch when not in use and still have enough throw to adjust for load when in use. If it was not there, you could end up with a choice of it staying on the perch while OFF, causing base idle to be too high, and or not having enough adjustment to increase or maintain RPM under the load of the A/C or Acc systems. Engine rattle.



    carb-#7.JPG

    Pic stolen from dixx168
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012

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