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Desperately need tuning help!

Discussion in 'Suzuki Carry' started by rstickley, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    it should only allow you to suck easily on 1 end and not the other...coloured or black end toward the dist.....I think:rolleyes:...emissions related..keeps the advance from closing too quickly off throttle
     
  2. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    So, from what I can figure out, if your truck is a 09.1991 or newer, then your in the same grouping as mine. For this grouping I figured out that my first listing(from memory) was good except for #4 and #5 are swapped.

    This is my truck(D section for EGR):


    [​IMG]





    Stop slam'in the truck doors and start drink'in more beer....:D...you think fupa can come up with .ru links like that on the fly without a cupple pops in him. I spent all day on that site and had a few myself before I decided on the "D-EGR" section to meet my needs...:cool:
     

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    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  3. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    The best I can figure, the following applies to me(my release date is 01.1992):

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Please correct me if I am wrong:
    A(1): goes to throttle valve
    B(2): goes to canister
    C(3): goes to choke
    4: goes to distributer
    5: goes to thermal valve then egr
     
    Justin Knowles likes this.
  4. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Well...I think that the one thing that we have figured out, is that there are a lot of different configurations for the same date and model...:frustration:

    Different EGR design? Different carb design? Greater emissions requirements for different regions of delivery?:sly:

    My first impression would be that if a different possible routing exists, then different component configurations must be involved. The one thing that I am confident about, is that a similar component requires a similar control.

    I would start with the F/Pr.."F" vacuum location. From the 5 possibilities on the carb, only 1 has a high vacuum at idle that drops off to nothing at high RPM. The 4 others will have a low vacuum reading at idle with 4 different peak levels at high revs. "F" being used for the Throttle-up actuator. Looking at your diagram "F" = "A" or "1" as we have designated it. Mine shows it at "5".

    Also, I believe that the port that has the highest peak vacuum at high revs would, on any set-up, run to the distributor.

    Having those two variables determined and then matched to one of the diagrams, the rest should fall into place.

    With the teamwork of everyone here, we'll get it figured out.:pop:
     
  5. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Here's a piece of what Don posted up for the mini-cab. Just to show you what I mean as I think this through. Gives you an idea of the control requirements for the different components. Not a direct solution though, just another piece of the puzzle...;)


    [​IMG]




    Thanks Don,
     

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  6. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    HOLD THAT THOUGHT!!! Got a new(sort of) problem!:mad: Went to work on it today now that the battery is charged back up and it would crank but not start.:frustration: Fuel pump is running but not strong enough to suck out of tank and pump to engine. This is the 3rd one in 2 yrs. I replaced it when I started this journey back in October. What inline electric pump are you guys using out there? This is a Carter but I think it is not strong enough and wears out prematurely trying to suck out of the tank. It is mounted within 1 foot of tank. Gotta get this fixed so I can get it running again to get vacuum lines and adjustments done. One step forward, two steps back!
     
  7. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Take the gas cap off, and try it again...:eek:
     
  8. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    Tried that first. I then pulled the pump off, put a hose on it and stuck it in a can of gas and connected to battery. It would run but not pump. Are you running a stock pump or an aftermarket? If aftermarket, which one?
     
    93carrysuz likes this.
  9. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Vacuum routing

    Well g@d d@m, if I didn't figure it out. It's so stupid...
    Vacuum line routing...
    The answer is right there in every pic, but you can't "see" it, cuz we're just not looking at it right. I'm so mad at the designers, WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS, IT'S SO STUPID???:confused: There IS only one routing for the DD51t.
    Hint: all the pics are the same, yes I'm sure 100%.

    Don must be laughing at the whole thread....he must know this..I don't "get it" it's so stupid...:frustration:

    Working on a write up to "show it" so that the average guy can understand it, but,

    guess away, this is a rubix cube problem, that many could figure out if they just looked at the pictures in the .ru link.....:pop:
    Hint#2: the pou, your set up is wrong, you need to swap #2 and #5 at the carb 100% sure.

    Edit...Hint#3: My "CHOKE-Idle is too high" thread pic #1 has the secret, on the lower left side...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  10. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    I never could do the whole rubix cube! I hope it matches the diagrams I posted above cause I felt pretty good about that set up. I figured out my fuel pump problem. Battery voltage dropped just below 12V after cranking a while and once that happened, pump would not pump to full potential. Charged battery again for a couple of days and pump works fine. Have to wait until the weekend to put all back together and get back to vacuum lines and carb adjustment.
     
  11. the pou

    the pou Member

    vacuum lines

    Thanks Spaner, i will switche vacuum line *2 with *5 (according to my drawing)But i am still confused because when i look at all the drawings from this thread,and the vacuum graphics,every thing shows that the seccond
    vacuum pin goes to the vapor canister.
     
  12. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Je sais, les réponses sont à venir...
    LAST HINT: Is your carb a 3+2 port?...or a 2+3 port?
    the pou..you are a 2+3 port...just like your hand drawn pic and the same as my truck. Match your pic (hint#5 PORTS) up to any of the pics. Difficult to explain in pic form, but working on it...

    Common, you guys can figure this out..:p


    Last..last...last HINT: For my buddy rstickley, yes sir, your pic choice was correct, and plumb it as such, because you sir, are a 3+2 port...

    Common, save these guys fupa...

    Every pic, and every explanation in this thread has been CORRECT: but you have not seen the obvious, check the pics and check the explanations...#1 port is not necessarilly the first...
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  13. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    The green fairy has given me the answers...haha...:D

    But, just wanted to cover a few bases first..
    rstickley?
    Post #1..where did you get that carb kit?
    Post #18...you do not have this "T", because you are a 3+2 dd51t...
    Post #22...adjusted when hot, your only concern is that the choke is all the way open, when hot...
    Post #24...timing should be set @ 7deg BTDC, but 12 should be OK...
    Post #30...man ho man..OK...BLACK side of element AWAY from distributor...100% sure...and choke restrictor...green towards choke...100% sure...

    Anything else?

    You know what's going on here?
    any Ideas?
     
  14. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    So here we have a DD51t with a 3+2 porting:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    And, then a DD51T, with a 2+3 porting.

    No, I did not know this until I looked into it...


    ...
     

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  15. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Here you can see the possibility, of the "F" vacuum line, being displaced, to the left of the porting system, in a 3+2 porting configuration....


    [​IMG]


    Why, I don't know,???


    ...
     

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  16. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    So, again, here is the "F" port jetting, missing from the left side, in a 2+3 DD51T setup...

    [​IMG]


    Is it really that hard to understand?...The "F" port, is switching, from right to left, in a 2+3 to a 3+2 configuration change....:mad:...I'll get a few more examples going here, not to worry...


    [​IMG]


    OK...I know, I know, you guys will get it. You see the port missing?
    That's because this is a 2+3 porting set-up...

    And this is Don's, @ yokahama, I hope, that he doesn't mind, cu'z it's the only true depiction of the true jet routing...thanks Don...:eek:


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    And, this is my carb, the DD51T...2+3...with the "F" trace tested on the right. The casting is ported for a 3+2 or a 2+3...easy to figure out which it is that you have...they are all 5's...a 3+2...or a 2+3...
    Why?...I don't know...doesn't matter...


    ...




    ...
     

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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
    Josh davis likes this.
  17. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    And...I hope that you "get it" from this point on...

    .....1, 2, 3, 4, 5,-----DD51T-2+3
    5, 1, 2, 3, 4,....------DD51T-3+2

    [​IMG]




    I really don't think that I can explain it any better than that...

    It will now match-up to any of the sketches...\
    If you don't understand, just PM me...


    ...
     

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  18. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    WTF ?...why would they bother with a different carb configuration. It's almost as if they did that just to piss off people 20 years down the road:p
     
  19. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    I now get it but I have to agree, WHY! I don't see the reason for different designs. But I can promiss you one thing, I will not worry about it after this thing is running and back to father-in-law.

    And Spaner, You are the man!!! I didn't realize I was opening a can of worms when I asked for a vacuum diagram but it is amazing the different results we found. Also, I got my carb kit from G&R. Hopefully I can complete this project this weekend. I usually take pictures or make drawing before I dive into projects but I don't know what I was thinking when I took it apart. Lesson well learned!
     
  20. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    A TEAM effort rstickley,
    This would not have happened if everyone did not come together,

    You, fupa, the pou...everyone gave a piece of what was needed to figure this out, and being honest, I did not start this search with your problem. I asked the site quite a while ago about this because I had messed up my own system while doing my supercharger conversion. I took pics, but they were all fubard because the flash was on...can't tell nothing from the pics. No one knew the answers...and the answers are not "out there", they are only here. We came together here, and the problem was figured out...here. Will anyone doubt the answer?...It's clear now isn't it? You can't deny the truth when presented with it, you're like, "yup, that makes sense now". In the end, my truck had the DIS and ERG connections swaped...not too bad...but will run better, this summer.
    Also, I had an ace for the problem...experience. While installing my supercharger, I needed a vacuum control line for the honeywell sensor at the carb that gave full vacuum at idle and low vacuum under PWR in order to close the clutch. Actual manual testing only gave one option..the "F" port. So, on mine, I knew where that was...#5..2+3..
    Then, with all the info being presented here, (and wanting to install a kit anyway) I pulled the carb thinking that I could figure it out by the placement of the ports in the ventury (like Don's post), but you can't, it's a "single ring set-up", NOT a "line-setup". Then, looking at the casting, I had "a moment of clarity" and all the sketches made sense. Just good timing, and a bit of the green fairy..:p

    Also, I decided to study the carb in detail. Choke operation and adjustment etc. I've done that, and decided that, knowing what I now know, to have it rebuilt restored, and tuned by a reputable carb shop(with components from yokohama). This is after talking with Don, and a few vendors about the Mikuni and the "rebuild" supply chain. The fact is, that we know more than they do, with the exception of Don, he uses your VIN to get the OEM carb for your set-up. (3+2...2+3...4WD...AT...Turbo...etc.). Why spend $120+ bucks on a kit, if you can get a complete rebuild from Don for $300...with no core charge? The other vendors do not. They have a stock Suzuki Carb(3+1).


    [​IMG]

    ...how do you "plug in" the EGR?
    Mabe just better to say OEM is best.

    And now, you're a frick'en mikuni installation master...;)
     

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  21. firejonny89

    firejonny89 Member

    hello all i just read most of this and it seems to me this is just wat i need for my mini to when it would drop off with lights on and it has a big lag when u step on the gas(hoping vac leak i can find lol) thanks alot should help bunches
     
  22. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    :frustration:Well, I thought I had my fuel pump problem fixed but I don't.:frustration: I have to replace it again and looking for a different brand. I would like to know for the people useing aftermarket fuel pumps out there, what brand and what psi does it have to be?
     
  23. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    Another lesson learned! Aftermarket inline pulse fuel pumps do now work on these trucks for more than about a month. Called G&R and found out this wonderful news so we got a replacement from them and installed it. Now I hope my fuel pump problem is solved for good!!

    Still will not idle after choke cuts off.:frustration: Spaner-Are you 100 % sure about the diaphram going to the distributor? You cannot suck through the black side like you can on the other side. Seems like you would want the black side pointing to the distributor. Also, it is hard to restart once it dies. This is a new issue since I rearranged the vacuum line. I thought it was the fuel pump problem cause I could choke it and it would start up without any problems. I guess I will get it to operating temp and try to reset the carb again and see what happens unless you experts have any other ideas.:confused: I am really starting to not like this truck at all.
     
  24. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Man, you're going to be able to open a shop when you're done:pop:

    No info on the pump, cu'z I have my original.
    Since you're pulling a vacuum at the distributor(vacuum line) then ya you should be able to suck air from dis to carb side. Who knows, maybe the "black" dosen't mark direction, or I've mixed up two in the past that are opposit?:confused: That is how it is on my truck, but test it, (are you sure that it's not just a "restrictor"? Does it have flow both ways just high one way and low the other?
    If you read the instruction above, it does say "probably won't keep running" after warm cu'z you have the screew out.....
    BTW changed it after I had the carb in my hand, just follow what's there now, it's even easier.
     
  25. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    WTF IS WRONG WITH THIS THING? Got it all adjusted after warmed up and rus great. Let it sit overnight and decided to take it for another spin. Cranked right up and after about 45 sec and the choke cut off, it stumbled down and dies. It will not idle. Once it warms up it runs good. It is 75*F here so I guess that is why the choke opens so fast. I just can't figure this out. I was so excited yesterday, that I even took a picture to show all of you what you helped me fix.
    [​IMG]

    Now, I am ready to blow it up!:frustration:
     
    olddeeres likes this.
  26. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    Nice!!
    Make sure you get a one-for-one trade on it for all the time and energy you put into it. 100hr of work= 100hr of borowing time. Don't forget that it still needs a lot of bush testing.;)

    You already mentioned that you messed with screew #4, way back when, and that does not mean that it was set properly in the first place.
    Is the choke butterfly all the way open when it's warm?
    Is it all the way closed when it is cold and off?

    If it is just that the choke cycle is completely open(done) too soon, this can be adjusted. With the truck HOT, like when you say it is running GREAT.
    Back off CCW the #4 screew just untill the butterfly starts to close, then CW 1/2 turn. I would call this the Winter Setting, as you can not set a greater choke duration than this. Try it out, but keep in mind that you may want a less extreem setting in summer. A compramize maybe.:pop:
     
  27. rstickley

    rstickley Member

    OK. No change. Adjusted like above and same thing. I am wondering if it is a coolant issue??? I used the bleeder screw on the t-stat housing several times and got lots of coolant out. I never worked on a carb that had a choke like this so I really am lost:confused:! I am just reaching here trying to think of something different than the same adjustments I have been playing with.
     
  28. pepci

    pepci Member

    I have a 91 Suzuki as well and when it began rough idling I did everything just to find that a small rock was caught in the EGR valve holding it almost closed at idle. After removing the rock it has ran great. Just my take on your problem especially if you do any gravel roads and such.You have to take the panel out of bed to access it for inspection.


    Pepci
     
  29. pepci

    pepci Member

    I have a 91 Suzuki as well and when it began rough idling I did everything just to find that a small rock was caught in the EGR valve holding it almost closed at idle. After removing the rock it has ran great. Just my take on your problem especially if you do any gravel roads and such.You have to take the panel out of bed to access it for inspection. I am almost sure this is where your problem is as it is doing the same thing mine was. I did a tuneup and looked all over like I said and finally after a couple days of fretting I decided to look at the EGR valve and found that lil rock screwing me up all along. Take a look and let me know.


    Pepci
     
    Jchriste likes this.
  30. spaner

    spaner Well-Known Member

    pepci, do you realize that you "found that rock" back in 2007? :rolleyes:

    One of the first threads that I read and one of the reasons that I joined the site. Guys here just won't give up until we find it, and fix it; and then we never forget about it, and we share it.

    Great to see you're still lurking...:pop:
     
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