1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Acty Stumbles - Engine won't rev and white smoke then engine recovers

Discussion in 'Honda Acty' started by mountain-artisan, Sep 26, 2022.

  1. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Per the Danko manual, the wiring is much simpler on n0n-air con and MT models. I am curious to know if cause is control/source (VSS) or wiring or solenoid.

    Am waiting for weather to warm up to have a look at the timing and for idle adjustment (that shogun mentioned). Also, the second issue of pulling engine speed down with alternator loading (ie. heater fan, lights) still exists. Don't know whether that is normal.
     
  2. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    Well, mines AC, but manual. So I guess the complexity falls somewhere in the middle, lol.

    I just noticed that last night on mine as well, headlights on you could hear the engine idle down a couple hundred rpms. To be honest I don't know if it misbehaves without any electronics on or not, I haven't had much time to diagnose it. But I will definitely start working on it soon because it's what we use on our farm, and my wife's not happy that it's not working.
    And you know what they say about those things.
     
  3. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    So that's not the vss.
    I started tracing the wire today. It goes from the carb solenoid down by the alternator, around the back of the engine over to the driver side inside of the engine compartment. It goes into a big square gray plug there. At that point the wire color changes from black/yellow to a yellow/white with a silver spot every couple inches. There is also a yellow/white with a orange or red spot in the same bundle.
    That bundle then goes to the other side of the truck underneath the condenser fan and then into the cab of the truck.
    There are two yellow wires connected to some sort of weird looking relay I've never seen before, but I don't get continuity from the plug to either of those wires. So I don't know if that's where my break is or not.

    Might not be till Friday or this weekend until I get back at it.
     
  4. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Pass1over, while the problem is not solved, the wire colors you provided could potentially be valuable at some point.

    To build on the "known's": When voltage is applied to the Air Vent Cut Solenoid (16031-PZ3-000) a passageway is opened from vapor canister to the carburetor. Probably fair to surmise the voltage is 12 V DC or more. Doubtful the solenoid would reliably work on partial voltage. So for discussion the device providing the voltage is switching the voltage. A relay of sorts. Another know appears to be that "speed" initiates the voltage. So somewhere in the mix is an electo-mechanical device stimulated by road speed (a switching device: solid state or mechanical). If we knew the device was a mechanical relay then injecting a tone on the wire and tracing the tone might work. However, if the driving device is solid state, the tone voltage might damage the driving "solid state relay". Using a tone is a potential gamble which it may come to.

    On the subject of stimulating the Air Vent Cut Solenoid. I seem remember posts by Old Machinist. I think he first disconnected the Air Vent Cut Solenoid and later went back and tied that solenoid to 12 V DC. Temporarily tying the solenoid to 12 V DC and test drive is something to try. If in doubt then tie it through a fuse.

    I went through the parts list on the HA4 and did not find anything relevant. I have archived some wiring diagrams and plan to have a look. However, changing out a network gateway is a current priority.

    In the absence of a serious HA4 wiring "schematic" it would be a nice dream if members of this forum would contribute their wire tracing findings toward accumulating an overall schematic. To that end, if any member could suggest a link or post such a schematic diagram(s), no doubt many would benefit.
     
  5. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    I was just looking at the schematic again and some of it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's a translation issue or something. If you look at the Air Vent Cut Solenoid, that's on the right side of the diagram, it's connected to the 15 amp cooling fan circuit. That doesn't make sense to me.

    It's the Fuel Cut Solenoid that's connected to the Combination Meter, or is it the speed sensor? The labeling on that certain part is very ambiguous to me. The item they're drawing inside the big box looks like a relay to me. Maybe?
     
  6. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Pass1over, to your first point of Air Vent Cut Solenoid, I mis-read and had the two solenoids reversed. Your find is a game changer and may make life easier. As my Dad used to say "Read"!

    Per the Danko manual (Page 117) the Air Vent Cut Solenoid is fed through the main fuse, then the ignition switch, and then the
    "cooling fan" 15 Amp fuse. The speed sensor is NOT related. That of course changes the approach. Also, the fuse label "cooling fan" may not be totally descriptive of that fuse.

    So, my thinking is to back to square one. That is to re-measure and verify the (low or no) voltage at the connector to the Air Vent Cut Solenoid with the ignition ON (engine running or not running). If low or no voltage repeat the measurement with the Air Vent Cut Solenoid (gently) disconnected. Also, depending on the voltage readings it may be valuable to measure the resistance of the Air Vent Cut Solenoid when that solenoid is disconnected.

    On the drawing of Danko manual (Page 117) I suspect the line from the 15 Amp fuse and the circuit tree below is simply missing.

    I went back through the electrical drawings that I had saved and determined they don't bring anything to the table.-- Bill
     
  7. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    I too was thinking the fuse was mislabeled, or a translation issue.
    Once I find continuity on that wire from beginning to solenoid, I'll try and get some measurements of voltages and resistances.
     
  8. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    I suspect that drawing may not tell the whole story. There may be other loads that are attached and not shown.

    My reason to first focus on the solenoid was to verify that it (low resistance or short) is not the cause. -- Good luck
     
  9. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    Still haven't found where that wire goes. There's 8 yellow wires that go into the cab from underneath but only 2 yellow ones that I can see inside the cab and neither one is that one.

    It doesn't go into that relay thing, nor is it directly wired to the fuse panel as the diagram suggests.



    I did find that the wire is only outputting around 10v. Since I'm getting voltage on the wire, it's probably not broken. So maybe corroded terminal or whatever it's connected to is dieing.

    If I apply 12v to solenoid direct from battery, truck runs great, so it's not the solenoid.

    I'll get to it more this weekend maybe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023
  10. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    If the function of the solenoid is as OldMachinist describes, then all it needs is a key on 12v source.

    Think I might just find a key on source, run a new wire and be done with it, lol
     
  11. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    pass1over, I missed your last post:
    "I did find that the wire is only outputting around 10v. Since I'm getting voltage on the wire, it's probably not broken. So maybe corroded terminal or whatever it's connected to is dieing.
    If I apply 12v to solenoid direct from battery, truck runs great, so it's not the solenoid."

    So now there are more "known's" to build upon.

    I checked the color of the wire of the the defective Air Vent Cut Solenoid which I pulled out. The color is Black/Green or Green/Black. I seem to remember that the feed wire to the solenoid was the same color. However I am not sure. Maybe you can comment on that feed wire color? So, per Danko, shouldn't that wire root back to the 15 A Cooling Fan Fuse??
     
  12. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    Feed wire is black green, looks like black white on mine.
    It goes over to a gray plug on drivers side engine compartment and changes color to yellow/white with a single silver blotch every so often.
    I don't know where it goes from there, I can't trace it.

    None of the fuse terminals had continuity with that wire, I checked all the 15 amp fuses. There were a couple others I didn't test, but I should of .. I will.
     
  13. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    May have been black/white on feed side of mine. -- It seems that color of wire would be related to function. However, with an added option (i.e.air con) an additional harness(s) with different colors to match the air con functions of that option is probably sandwiched. Danko AC Circuit Diagram on Page 226 has Yellow/White wiring and also get's cozy with the 15 A Cooling Fan Fuse.

    As a temporary fix, the Air Vent Cut Solenoid feed could be disconnected and temporary feed from the 15 A Cooling Fan Fuse. That supply would be fused and switched. That would get it going, buy time, and allow you to re-group and re-think after working upside down at that fuse block. -- I think that Page 226 needs to be considered.
     
  14. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    Problem is, I see yellow/white wires a lot underneath the dash, etc. (and none of them have continuity with the yellow/white in my engine compartment) It seems as they used the same color for multiple things.

    The wire coming from my air cut solenoid is definitely black/yellow from the engine compartment plug to the solenoid. I'm still very stumped as to why they would change the wire color at the connection, makes no sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
  15. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    If I understand correctly: 1). Low voltage at Air Vent Cut Solenoid pig tail. That is low voltage with the Air Vent Cut Solenoid pig tail connected. The low voltage is apparently too low to actuate the Air Vent Cut Solenoid. 2). Color of pig tale and it's feed wire is Black/Green or Green/Black. 3). Feed wire color changes to yellow/white with a silver spot at connection on driver's side. 4). The low voltage (10 v or so is apparently is not enough voltage to actuate the Air Vent Cut Solenoid. 5). The truck is MT with Air Con. (If so, there appears to be additional circuitry relative to Air Con.)

    Based on the above, something is limiting the current (e.g A high series resistance possibly including a series relay contact resistance causing a voltage drop (e.g: corrosion.) Not a short or there probably would be blown fuse.

    As I indicated previously, per Danko Page 226 Air Con wiring, there are yellow/black wires, two 15 A fuses, and series relays. However, no black green or green black wires. Can you locate and/or trace (voltage or continuity) the yellow/white wire through either of the relays and 15 A to 12 V? By the way, does the air condition function (with and without the Air Vent Cut Solenoid bypassed?

    Also, two other questions: 1) Was tracing done with ignition switch on? 2). Was tracing done with Air Vent Cut Solenoid connected?

    Per Danko P226, until proven otherwise I continue to look at the Air Con circuitry as a added series component in line with the Air Vent Cut Solenoid feed pig tail.
     
    shogun likes this.
  16. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    The assumptions you stated are correct.
    Solenoid wire is black/green. It plugs into a black/yellow wire. That black/yellow wire changes to yellow/white on drivers side. From there, I cannot find continuity anywhere up front.

    A/C functions either way, I see no difference in that.

    Tracing was done with ignition switch off, solenoid unplugged.

    I have another HA4 at my house that functions fine, so I have a control to go from. It also it a manual with A/C. Key on, truck 2 gets 12V at the solenoid wire. If I check continuity on truck 2, key off shows continuity on the top 3 fuses on my fuse block. Key on it has continuity to those and the 3 below it. But wouldn't that be just because they're all sharing the same power source?

    I have not checked continuity on truck 1 to compare it to (wife's been using it and I've been busy) the continuity characteristics from solenoid to fuses from truck 2.

    It might be connected somehow with the AirCon, but I doubt it. I think the fuse is mislabeled on the carb wiring diagram. It doesn't make sense to me that it's connected to the cooling fan circuit. I wish I could find an original Japanese version of this manual, I could have my friend translate it for me to know for sure what it's labeled as.
     
  17. shogun

    shogun Active Member

    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  18. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Shogun, good to hear your comments, thanks.

    That manual you referred to is the Danko which we have. The other owners manual document I did not see an electrical contained with in. Lacking English nomenclature, those wiring diagrams I had previously not paid attention. But now maybe it is time to take a harder look. Keep scraping the barrel. -- Bill
     
  19. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Pass1over,
    1). The key is, where is the yellow/white wire (black/green wire to the Air Vent Cut Solenoid) sourced from?

    2). Since the air-con is working in each vehicle, the "main path" through the air-con is not affected and therefore can be ruled out of the equation. However, again I suggest that air-con circuit may contain auxiliary circuit path to the famous Air Vent Cut Solenoid. A possible clue to that is the wire color transition to "yellow/white.

    3). Using a volt meter to trace for a voltage drop (Ignition ON) as opposed continuity tracing with an ohm meter may be a better choice in spotting a voltage drop.

    4). The solenoid actuates fine when tested by itself. However, WHEN the solenoid is connected to it's (black/green) source wire, AND the ignition switch is set to Run, the solenoid does not actuate. AND the voltage measured at the (black/green) source feed wire (connected) is too low to actuate the solenoid. That suggests excessive series resistance (eg. relay contact, wire connection corrosion) in the feed.

    5). Having that second Acty (for control measurement) is a blessing. -- I am not clear on your comment of fuse continuity description on truck #2. In any case I would expect that both trucks would exhibit the same voltage test results at both sides of all 15A fuses. Also, in the case of any fuses connected through the switch would follow the ignition switch position. Without researching it, I can't say if all the 15A fuses are run through the ignition switch. Additionally, I would expect there would not be a difference between the two trucks. If there is a difference then it need's to be looked at.

    6). It would be important to measure the voltage (with ignition key On) at both the Yellow/White - Black/Green wire junction and at the Black/Green pig tail/feed junction in both trucks.

    7). Regarding the now famous Danko P226, potential AirCon circuitry and possible mis-labeling, let's keep those circuit paths in mind.

    8). It would seem that the yellow/white "source" (Item #1 above) remains key. Possibly Bert's wiring diagram posts and/or measurements from truck #2 will yield a clue.

    Easy for me say for I am not the one that is crawling in the tight spaces, I don't think the problem is "rocket science"!
     
  20. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    So I got the Japanese original and used Google lens to translate it

    Looks like it's fed through a 10 amp fuse, no relay.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    Good find on that wiring diagram and translation. So per that diagram, the Air Vent Cut Solenoid is being fed through the ignition switch, then through a 10 Amp fuse, then through a yellow white wire, then a black/yellow wire, then through a black/green wire. And, NO series relay to boot.

    (The cause may be unwanted series resistance in this path.)

    Just curious: A). Have you been able to trace 12 V to input side, then the output side of the 10 A fuse (ignition switch on)? B). Have you been able to trace continuity and (low) resistance with ignition switch off to the Air Vent Cut Solenoid feed junction (black/green wire)?
     
  22. pass1over

    pass1over Member

    I haven't spent any time on tracing this issue except for the translations today. I've been busy with other things, but it's on the list. lol
     
  23. mountain-artisan

    mountain-artisan New Member

    I know the drill! (ie: Been busy with other things).
     

Share This Page