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92 Suzuki, No top end power?

Discussion in 'Suzuki Carry' started by KElmore, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. Tech Doug

    Tech Doug New Member

    No Power

    Hey , this is my first reply,I had an issue almost the same symtoms,you should check the vaccum pot that controls the hot air from the manifold I found the small rod that comes off the diaphram was broken and not allowing the air flow it needed!!NO POWER at higher speed or RPM.
     
  2. geoffreyr66

    geoffreyr66 Member

    Great suggestion! I'll look into it next time I'm in the garage!

    Thanks!
     
  3. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    Power

    Went for a long ride today of over 300 kms just for fun. But found our frost distorted road surfaces slightly less than fun. A few times I'm sure all 4 wheels left the ground. With the nice cushy seats the back to earth experience was quite a reality check. Road maintenance needs to put up a few "bump ahead signs". But all and all good day and was unable to burn a tank of gas. Anyways the point I wanted to make is that I don't seem to have that power problem most people seem to have on this post so I checked my timing when I got home and it is set at 12ยบ, not sure what it should be but I'm going to leave mine alone. What I find the funniest is when you come up to a grade and the engine starts to growl like a mad cat. I love my Carry and no it's not for sale. You can have my Corvette not much for off road.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  4. zardoz

    zardoz Member

    Little Foot, do you have 13's on your truck? I found any road tire in 12 inch on my truck made the ride dam rough... I swapped a set of 13's from a geo metro and made all the difference in the world, potholes that would have rattled my frame before are now just a decent bump. I come from the shore road in NS and can sympathize with the lousy roads, I'd never move back to Ontario... but I sure do miss the nice flat roads ;)

    z
     
  5. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    Actually, I'm riding on 14" 185/65R14(23.5" diameter). I had 13"s and found those also too rough. I just can't fix the roads. On Indian Mountain road speed is set at 80Kms and you would be lucky to safely drive 50Kms/h with any vehicle including a Carry. One Km either side of the Government road maintenance garage (now there's an Oxymoron) is the worst with launching ramps instead of potholes.

    I too would like more tools...You should see my Xmas list.
     

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  6. zardoz

    zardoz Member

    Little Foot, is your machine lifted? What did you get the rims from? How do the bigger tires affect your top end?

    z
     
  7. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    No lift, no rub. Off of a Nissan Pulsar I think. I can now use first gear and I have no problem reaching 100Kms. A lot more comfortable at 80Kms which is where I normally cruise.
     
  8. Little Dumper

    Little Dumper Member

    Big Tires

    Now that I have had a few days with the little guy with some 165/80r13 tires on her I can say without a doubt that putting larger tires on a Carry with a 4spd is the only way to go.

    I drove the truck around for a day with the 155/80r12's on (20.8" dia) and found that 1st was all but useless (started out in 2nd on all but an incline) and 3rd gear was too short to use in light to light traffic (had to shift up to 4th which is much taller than 3rd making the engine lug).

    With the 13's (23.3" dia) I will actually use 1st now and 3rd is just barely going to do it for cruising up to the next light at 50km/h. 4th is now quite useless at anything under 60km/h but it sure helps the topend. I can hit 90 km/h now and the motor doesn't sound like it's going to blow at any minute. The only drawback was that the tire will rub the inner splashield at full lock to the right, left was fine. I have no lift at this time (soon to be fixed).


    I highly recomend anyone suffering from powerloss (I had very little stock to begin with) to bump up the Ign. timing to 15 deg. BTDC. The diff. in grunt was HUGE, it made the truck feel just like it did with the 12's back on it again. Don't worry about the total timing, I checked it and 35 deg. with the base set at 15 deg. is no where near too much. I tested it with the, I'm sure was, 6 month old gas in the tank from Japan and everything was Kosher. With some 90 octane regular from Mohawk she will be just fine.


    I love this truck.......


    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  9. MiniBrutes

    MiniBrutes Gold Supporting Member

    "4th is now quite useless at anything under 60km/h but it sure helps the topend"

    4th is not intended for use under 60KMH.

    FACTORY SPECS:

    1st to 20kmh
    2nd to 40kmh
    3rd to 60KMH
    4th over 60KMH

    So, yes, 4th is useless under 60 unless cruising without the need for acceleration.

    110KMH should be attainable on stock tires on a 4 speed truck. 95% of the hundreds of trucks we have sold would do 110.

    Had a couple 2WDs do 135.

    So, if any of you are in the habit of shifting to 4th prior to say 50kmh, you are not using the power band of the engine properly.

    This are high-revving motors that make their power with RPM, not with low end torque.

    Engine sounds like its gonna blow at 90? I drive WOT all the time, hundreds of KM on the highway, havent blown a motor yet.
     
  10. Little Dumper

    Little Dumper Member

    I've heard you say that before, and really, running the snot out of it just because you can isn't really the best thing for engine longevity. The HP peak is about 6500 rpm, so redline would be about 7000 rpm. Running an engine at 80 to 90% of it's top rpm capibility is just asking for trouble. These engines may be the same size as a motorcycle engine, but that's it. The reasonable operating range would be between 2500 and 5500 with the peak torque comming in at around 4000 rpm. The closer you run the engine at it's torque peak the more efficient it will be and, for the most part, the longer it will last.

    I found that there is a big gap betwwen 3rd and 4th, 3rd was reving the motor un-neededly and 4th was just too tall to pull the truck up some very slight inclines at 50km/h. 80km/h is pretty much the limit on most roads in Japan so I'm quite sure that those crafty Japanese made 80km/h the reasonable limit for highway driving. You can push it to 130 km/h every once in a while but I wouldn't do it for 400km. If these engines were designed to run at 6500 rpm for hours on end the redline would have been designed to be 10,000 not 7000.

    I've built my fair share of 500+HP engines in my time and currently have a Nissan GTR with about 650HP that runs 10.70's at 133mph on street tires. All built with my hands, so I'm not just some internet bozo that read some crap and then proceeded to regurgitate here........with all do respect, I know of what I speak.



    PS: don't fear the big tires, 23 to 24 inch tall is perfect.




    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  11. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    Finally somebody with balls. I didn't want to answer MiniBrutes comment but now I feel I can. 15-35-50 is what my DD51T is shifted by ear. I shift when I feel engine loses power. My Carry revs at 4000 RPM at 60Kms and I feel that that is where it is most efficient. Rule is 666 RPM for every 10Km per hour in high gear which means 7400 rpm's at 110. 135 would mean around 9000 RPM. I don't know what saint he prays to to be able to state what he does but his luck will run out. I have run mine at 80 Kms per hour for long runs but I know it is a strain for the little 657cc. I get 39 miles per gallon Canadian at 60Kms per hour and only 31 at 80Kms per hour. So I know where this engine is efficient, it is around 4 to 5000 RPM. On high gear I have found that maximum HP and torque is around 70 Kms per hour which would be around 4700 RPM. I'm no rocket scientist but I will not blow-up my Carry to proove otherwise because I like the darn machine too much. Sorry MiniBrutes ! I will still buy parts from you.....LOL
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  12. MiniBrutes

    MiniBrutes Gold Supporting Member

    I agree but disagree. 2500RPM? No power. Not in the power band. My truck at 50KMH in 4th gear is about 3300RPM. (On street tires) And that is still low.

    Step on the gas, the power doesn't come on for a few more hundred RPM, which is why I said, 4th gear much less than 50KMH is not right. (Unless you are cruising at that speed, but to accelerate, shifting into 4th prior to 50 takes you out of the powerband, where third is still in it. )

    Your 500HP vehicles are totally different machines, so your reference there dont mean much.

    To operate (Sorry, to accelerate, or go up an incline, or go against a headwind) at 2500 RPM is too far below the power band. (Might be OK for cruising flat ground with no need for power) That is harder on this type of engine than running at 6000 RPM.

    Yes, higher speeds do get lower fuel economy. I have said that several times. But this is the same with most vehicles MPG ratings. My wifes SUV gets better fuel economy at 80KM than 110.

    So to say to drive at 2500 RPM in a k-truck silly. What happens when you step on the gas at 2500? Not much. Takes a while to get to 3500 then starts to pickup.

    So, I stand by what I said 100%.

    While accelerating, shifting into 4th prior to 50KMH is too soon. (Because you are simply not in the power band)

    But I guess if the engine is revving wrong between 3rd and 4th, the Suzuki engineers must have got it all wrong.

    I have never had a 4WD break about 120. It has only been 2WD's hitting over 130. (Supercharged Subaru not withstanding) Less drivetrain losses means more power, and I think they have a taller final ratio. Although I did not have a tach, they did not sound any different than my 4wd at 110ish. So, 135 in a 4wd? No way! 110 sure. We do recommend to our 4wd customers that 90 is a nice cruising speed to maintain better fuel economy and such.

    PS. Tried bumping the timing to 15 as you suggest. It barely made a noticeable difference on my personal truck. Mine is a 5 speed though. I still drive 4th up to 100, then 5th over that. (Unless at a cruising speed, then I will shift up prior to 100)

    Everything I have said is mainly to do with accelerating. To cruise in 4th at 40kmh isnt bad, but if you need to pass or something, shifting into 3rd is much better than just stomping on the gas in 4th and lugging the engine, waiting to get to the power band.

    15-35-50 is fine. I said shifting BEFORE 50 into 4th is not much good, and for maximum power its 20/40/60 (This is a Suzuki rating, not something I pulled out of my arse!).

    I get 25MPG at WOT ;)

    23's are nice. 24's are pushing it, 25s suck (for street use, keeping up with traffic). For off road, and toodling around, its really a moot issue. But a truck with 24s and 25s will not accelerate as fast as 23's or smaller. If you are in Toronto traffic, you would not want bigger than a 23. At every red light you would become almost like an 18 wheeler when it comes to keeping up with traffic.


    SO, I should have clarified by saying those speeds are for max power/acceleration. Cruising is a different ball of wax.
     
  13. oldsnowman

    oldsnowman Member

    I agree with minibrutes...the engines in these trucks are NOT your normal everyday engine, the engine most like our trucks is the one in the 600cc sport bikes like a CBR600RR. this engine like ours makes all its HP high up, and if you overload an engine like this at low RPM, YOU WILL DO DAMAGE. little dumper is a little short on that red line...it is 8500rpm, like the CBR600RR which has a 14000 red line. my truck really starts to pull over 5500rpm, and keeps on pulling right up to 105kph (6700rpm)where i cruise. i have been at 120kph (7500) but in a truck like this that is too fast :D
    two more thing, 1 if you run (driving on the street) tires more then 3% larger then stock you will loose power on hills, in the wind, and put too much load on your brakes causing over heating. yes the engine is noisey in the cab...your sitting on it! i am putting sound mats in my truck this year, so i will let you guys know how that goes.
    2 you know that your engine has a counter balancer so it will run smooth at high rpm, so your engine is safe at 6000 to 7000 rpm.
    i am only trying to help with all the information i have, and i am glad to do so, plus we don't need one of our trucks in a big crash to give the government more reason to not let us drive these fun little trucks, so be safe :)
    wyatt
     
  14. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    Nose to windsheild

    I find my nose awfully close to the windsheild and the windsheild is only about 2" back of the plastic Bumper. So I agree with "oldsnowman" the Carry is no Corvette. If I can avoid driving over 80Kms/Hr I do so. Don't want this machine to be my coffin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  15. Little Dumper

    Little Dumper Member

    I have worked on a few crotch rocket engines too and I'll tell you right now that these engines are NOT even close to that. I just drove around with the pass. seat out and I can tell you that the engine has some wicked harmonics at about 100 km/h on the speedo. I had my hand on the valve cover while I was driving and you can really feel it. At about 120km/h it seems to dissipate a little.

    I also drove it around like a big rig, taking it up to about 3000 rpm (I think, no tach yet) then grabing the next gear. If you are not trying to "John Force" the little bugger, it does just fine. Like I said before, the gap between 3rd and 4th is a little big so I take it up a bit higher to grab 4th. The reason I said the low end of the RPM scale starts at 2500 is that there are no harmonics happening at WOT at that RPM so it is safe to use it for driving around. The only thing lugging will damage is the main and rod bearings because of to low of oil pressure, at 2500 RPM there should be about 30 to 35 psi which is enough to keep you out of trouble. I makes no difference that nothing happens in 4th when you punch it, it just means you can use it for cruising and get 50 MPG if that's what you are into.

    These 3 cyl. engines are not the best design to run really high (7000rpm +) in the long term. A buddy of mine 15 years ago had a Turbo Sprint that he built up and went through 3 motors before he figured out that reving it to 8000rpm was a no,no. With the Garrett T-25 that he had on there from a Dodge Shelby, that thing would just keep going and the power would never fall off. My Skyline is the same, I could rev it to 10,000, I just don't because the harmonics at that RPM will shatter oil pumps and split blocks at 800+HP (the support systems I have will produce 900HP if I let it).


    I don't want to get into a marketing argument here I just want to inform people from a "mechanic/hotrodder/I've been to Japan and witnessed first hand what these trucks do day to day" point of view. Believe me, I LOVE these trucks but they do have a few short comings (but I don't care). I stand by what I said, these trucks were never intended to go over 80km/h and reving the snot out of it will shorted it's life. People can do what they want with their trucks, just be safe, these things will do a STOPPIE (reverse cat-walk on a motorcycle) in a panic stop.




    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
  16. oldsnowman

    oldsnowman Member

    Hey little dumper you should put a tach in your truck, then i think your numbers will be more in line :) i don't know what type of engine you have in your truck but mine is a 12valve OHC hemi engine with a crank driven counter balancer. it has no vibration, and shifts are normally at about 5000rpm, but if i am racing around (which is a lot of the time:D) the shifts are closer to 6000rpm. you are right, in japan most places the max speed is 80k's (i have been there too), but like here, our speed limits in most places is 100k's but does not mean that our cars and truck can't go faster and able to do so. i have been a mechanic for 30 years so i know a few things :)
    wyatt
     
  17. Little Dumper

    Little Dumper Member

    Same engine as you (F6A), and yea there is a dampner on the front of the crank but it can only do so much and is tuned to a specific rpm anyway (you know that right?). When you say "counter balancer", you don't mean the same type of shaft that a 4.3l Chevy motor has in it to dampen the firing order, do you? I looked at an engine blow-apart picture today and didn't see anything like that.

    Had my timing light hooked up to it today (it has a tach on it) and I was right on the money, that harmonic happens at 6400rpm. I have blown up $500 motors and $5000 motors and my butt and ear dyno is quite in tune, I felt the harmonics as soon as I drove the truck for the first time. Harmonics are different than vibration, they can do more damage and will happen at multiple RPMs whereas a vibration will just get worse the faster you go. Harmonics will weaken valve springs and prematurely age a timing belt (among a host of other things).

    At any rate, I said my peace, take from it what you will. My G-TECH Pro doesn't lie though, I picked up 4lb/ft of torque from the 15deg intitial timing setting (lost some torque on the topend but I'd rather have it down low) and the engine doesn't even feel the A/C compressor kick in any more. If you do the math that's an 8% increase in torque from just ignition timing, that's like 30 lb/ft in an average Chevy 350.:cool:



    Jon.
     
  18. oldsnowman

    oldsnowman Member

    my engine is a 3G83 12 valve, and it has an internal counter balancer shaft that runs beside the crank to eliminate engine vibration at high rpm...yes it is inside the engine. it is the same kind of balancer that seadoo has on there 1500cc 4stroke. you right, the harmonic is not designed for high rpm so hence the internal counter balancer. you will find a lot of high reving 4 strokes with internal counter balancers. ;D i am not saying that people should hold it to the rug or put the speedo in the basement, to just know that the engine is made to do these kind of rpm's, and that you will do more damage to it by putting over sized tires on then reving at 6500rpm can ever do. :)
    wyatt
     
  19. Little Foot

    Little Foot Member

    Quick question: My truck runs nice but I can't drive it at 70Kms/H the loud reverberating low frequency noise drives me insane. Below 67 OK and over 73 OK. It gets really loud at 4700RPM and then goes quiet again. Am I hiting some kind of resonant frequency at the intake or exhaust? Has anybody experienced this same noise? Even worst when you hit and incline and speed drops to below 73 Kms/H. And why don't I get same noise when going through that engine REV on other gears?
     
  20. Little Dumper

    Little Dumper Member

    I guess I should have looked at your sig a little more closely:frustration:.

    A counter balance shaft is actually quite rare, most man. like to avoid it if they can. They are usually a result of consumer complaints about vibrations. The 4.3L Chevy V6 has an even firing order with a split rod journal crankshaft to make the engine idle a little smoother, it was better than the odd fire Buick motors from the '70s but not good enough for some people. After a long time (10 years) they finally put a counter-balance shaft in the lifter valley driven by the cam to offset the shaking caused by having the engine a 90 deg. vs a 60 deg angle between banks (the 2.8 to 3.4L engines were much smoother).

    The SeaDoo is most likely the same, people complained about having a numb ass after 2-3 hours on their toy and had to add the shaft. Makes it better for the user, not directly for the engine.


    LittleFoot: I have the same thing happen, it's just the RPMs where things just come together and sing like a choir to annoy you. You should have heard the resonance in my S10 Blazer with an LT1 in it at 2400rpm (100km/h), I had to wear ear plugs, that's what I get for putting dual 3" exhaust on it.:rolleyes:




    Jon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010

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