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2003 Suzuki w/ bad engine... Any advice?

Discussion in 'General Truck Info' started by DYNOBOB, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Yesterday I picked up a different 2003 Suzuki Carry from a facility maintenance company that will not start. It turns out that the motor has low compression, 47,65,84 psi. Does anyone have an idea where to source a used long block? Can you buy overhaul kits? I believe this is an aluminum block, does it use liners or nickasil plating? Is this thing a 1400lb paperweight?

    The truck was used on a very dusty construction site before they acquired it. To the best knowledge it always had an air filter though. I suppose it is a cautionary tale when buying a vehicle that isn't running/running right to do a compression check if you can. You can fix fuel or spark problems...compression is different story.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  2. werase643

    werase643 Member

    do a wet and dry compression and determine why the compression is low anything can be rebuilt.
     
  3. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    The best advice I can give you is just give it to me. but yes the wet compression test is a good idea. Maybe it jumped time? Rebuild kits are available. I think minibutes, fg procurement has them, from what I recall, and some others as well... that is if the kit works on the newer body styles.
     
  4. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    could simply be tight valves not closing all the way as well
     
  5. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Don't the late model trucks have hyd cams? If not that might explain why it slowly got worse...

    I thought about jumped timing but everyone says timing chains very rarely jump? I also poured some 15w40 down the cylinders and it tried to hit but never caught. Considered doing a leak down but either way it has to come apart and they've got to decide how far they're going. I let the cust know what I found and waiting to hear back. Doubting they're going to put a thousand or two in getting it fixed.

    I'll contact FG Procurement. At this point I'm just trying to gather a little info to give them options. So far I'm not seeing where anyone sells rebuild kits for the late model truck.

    Makes me thankful for how good my truck runs...

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  6. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Don't know about hyd cams or not but have seen, over the past couple years, a thread or two with members that post that the chain on the newer suzukis have jumped time (actually this is the only case that I recall where a truck has jumped time). Have also seen a bunch of threads where members post that they used a air filter they found in the parts store that seems to fit but don't actually seal completely and dusted the motor but from what I recall thats more of a oil consumption smoking issue.
     
  7. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    Just checked a parts diagram and it appears the 2003 and newer Carrys had adjustable valves ..but they are bucket and shim...can't see them expanding to make the valves remain open,but maybe it's possible with neglected oil changes...also possible that severe carbon build up/deposits on the valves could keep them from sealing shut inside the combustion chamber
     
  8. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    I appreciate the info guys. Sounds like it would be worth checking the cam timing. It does have a stock air filter (very dirty/may be orig). Truck has 45,000 km. Good chance the truck has spent a lot of time idling in its life, valve deposits are a possibility. The other '03 Carry I've got here working on bought a fram air filter, I'm not impressed w/ how it fits.

    Anyone know what I'm looking for on cam timing? Cyl 1 tdc, lines on cam gears aligned or ???
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  9. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Here's a little more info...

    Spoke further w/ the owner, the truck never smoked or showed signs of burning oil. Ran perfect last summer and fall, became hard to start when it got cold (Nov). Basically would not start since.

    What I've done so far:
    Disconnected the fuel line to the engine and pumped the tank dry (direct wired the fuel pump temporarily), put in fresh gas.
    It has strong spark.
    It wets the plugs quickly so I unplugged the injectors, put in new plugs, and tried to start on starting fluid.

    Of course all this was useless given the compression numbers I'm getting.

    I'm going to pull the valve cover and look at cam timing if someone has the info. I've searched and don't see a thread where someone was sure theirs had jumped timing. It looks like Willyboy eventually said his problem was bad rings or gas.

    Does anyone know what the fuel press should be w/ the truck running?

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2011
  10. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah. I see what you mean now. He said it jumped time then in another thread proved himself wrong. It was a long time ago. You probably saw this but just in case you didn't he explained how to time the cams.

    Also I think I have parts catalog for this truck. Not sure if it goes back to 03 but it goes up to 09. JIC you need part numbers or something.
     
  11. werase643

    werase643 Member

    check the timing marks.
    check the valve lash
    what is the fuel pressure you get?
     
  12. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Update

    I'm buying that it may have jumped timing but need better info on how to check. With valve cover off I see the yellow link but no black links. As you rotate motor the chain goes from tight to quite loose, sometimes there is almost an inch of slack. When the chain is tight you can push it and watch the tensioner move to allow slack into the chain. When slack it's almost like the tensioner lacks enough travel to keep it tight.

    Greg, can you tell looking at the parts view if there is a bolt you loosen from outside the motor to allow the tensioner to take up more slack? I've seen motorcycles that work that way.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. werase643

    werase643 Member

    find the timing mark on the crank pulley.....
    look for the timing marks on both of the cams
    do they line up to any marks on the casting of the head or the plane of the valve cover
    rotate 360 and check again
     
  14. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    timing parts list,and diagram.if you can't get the link.....sorry I couldn't get the diagram to resize ???
    actually everything you need is in this pdf link..takes a bit to load,but has your engine in it,and service info
    http://products.jacobsen.com/img/manuals/4120402.pdf
    1
    The distribution chain
    12761-73G01-000
    1687 p.
    2
    Chain guide
    12771-73G00-000
    369 p.
    3
    Bolt
    12776-85FA0-000
    Bolt, timing chain guide
    78 p.
    4
    Tensioner, chain
    12811-73G01-000
    not sold

    Tensioner, timing chain
    12811-58J00-000
    1246 p.

    Link, tensioner
    12821-58J10-000
    152 p.
    5
    Gasket tensioner chain
    12812-73G10-000
    109 p.
    6
    Bolt
    01550-08253-000
    not sold

    Bolt
    01 550-0825B-000
    109 p.
    7
    Gasket tensioner
    12813-73G00-000
    72 p.
    8
    Link
    12821-78G00-000
    152 p.
    9
    Bolt
    01550-06123-000
    not sold

    Bolt cementing
    01 550-0612B-000
    109 p.
    10
    Adjuster assy, tensioner
    12831-58J00-000
    1802 p.

    アジャスタアッシ, テンショナ
    12831-78G01-000
    not sold
    11
    Gasket, tensioner adjuster
    12832-58J00-000
    57 p.
    12
    Bolt
    01550-06203-000
    not sold

    Bolt, inspection cap
    01 550-0620B-000
    109 p.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  15. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    If memory serves my CBR gears have marks which point at each other and line up w/ the plane of the valve cover. I'll check this out tomorrow.

    Man! Thanks for that link to manual! Anyone have knowledge of how to adjust the tension on the chain? Actually in the diagram it doesn't look adjustable. May be looking at a stretched chain.

    EDIT: Looks like oil pressure when running provide extra tension.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  16. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

  17. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Big Thanks!!!! That answers all questions.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  18. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Hey good work guys. Seems I missed the turn of events yesterday. :sly:
     
  19. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Update

    It did jump timing. Going to be some work to correct...not sure yet if can be done w/o pulling motor. It would be nice to know if pistons hit valves before going too far. As you spin the motor by hand it does get hard in places but I think it's just valve spring resistance.

    Again, thanks to fupabox for the manual! This was not going to happen with out it.

    It appears you could order timing chain, etc from a Cushman dealer.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  20. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Makes me wonder if its something else besides the chain... Perhaps the tensioner has failed?
     
  21. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    I'm going to recommend they replace the chain, followers, and tensioner if we can get new.

    It appears both cams are off by one link.

    Bob
     
  22. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Update

    Well here is what I'm finding. After a lot of work the crossmember, oil pan, and front cam chain cover are off (motor is suspended from above). Once I could see all the gears it appears the marks on the sprockets all lined up w/ their corresponding marks on the block. The colored links on the chain never would line up as shown in the manual however no matter how many times I rotated. It seems that the chain has stretched to the point that the tensioner bracket was hitting the back of the tensioner and wearing away both parts (see arrows in pics). There is a lot of slop in the whole tensioner system. Since the sprockets marks all seemed to line up on the block marks it has me wondering if it did jump time. Before ordering all new tensioner parts I decided to put everything back together and recheck compression. Before putting it back together I removed some metal from the tensioner bracket so it doesn't hit the back of the tensioner thus giving the tensioner more travel to keep the chain tight. Here's what is weird, I lined up all sprockets marks and installed colored links on chain to correct marks and put back together. When I rotate the crank the colored links on the chain will never return back to the marks on the sprockets they started from. Even after 6-8 full rotations of the chain (20-30 of the crank) the closest they ever return is one link off of all three sprockets. I reinstalled chain 3 times and same results. The sprocket marks however still index to the block marks.

    Any thoughts???

    Tensioner connector bracket bottoming against tensioner...
    [​IMG]

    Worn areas...
    [​IMG]

    Area I clearanced on the bracket
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  23. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    If you keep on turning the crank they will eventually line back up...takes a ton of rotations(same # of ratations as teeth on the crank if I remember ,but don't quote me on that)...as long as the chain remains tight the relationship between the cams and crank will not change (# of links) the chain marks are only for initial installation to make sure you have the correct # of links between each.
     
  24. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member


    I thought as long as the sproket marks indexed with the block it wouldn't matter? I guess like you say its just for initial installation. Now I see why willyboy had so much trouble timing his zuk. Kinda confusing...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  25. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Yeah, you take the valve cover off and it appears to be out of time. The repair manual just says you may have to rotate several times to line up marks.

    I'll spin it tomorrow to see if they eventually line up.
     
  26. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    can't remember the method for figuring out how many rotations,but I'm sure I can google it ...something like the # of teeth per sprocket-links in the chain x the circumference of the earth on Tuesday...I'll see if I can find the true math cause now I want to know for sure as well.:frustration:
     
  27. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Tight valves?

    I had not checked the valves because it seemed unlikely that all cylinders would be down on compression due to that and the cust says it was running fine all last year until Nov. Since it appears to be in time and fupa explained why the chain marks aren't lining up I decided to check the valves.

    Unless I've gone retarded it appears that the valves are all tight. I cannot get any feeler gauge under any intake (not even .002). The exhaust are all 9-10 thou. Service manual says intake 7-9 thou and exhaust 12-14 thou. To measure I had the lobe totally opposite the valve...don't know how else it could be done. Sure seems weird.

    Any thoughts?

    Bob

    [​IMG]
     
  28. fupabox

    fupabox Well-Known Member

    yeah that is odd...any oil coking on the shim surface? all being tight suggests maybe an additive was used at some time that built up a glaze on the shim buckets or surface of the shim..dribble some seafoam or kerosene on one and let it sit a while...see if it loosens a tad...maybe engine restore or some other additive that builds up with friction was used...can't see all the valves having combustion chamber deposits,but I guess that's possible as well..looks like you found the culprit though,which is good.....my only other suggestion is carbon build up in the head,but I wouldn't pull it to check until you find if the shims are glazed ..you may just need to polish them down....also you could pull all the loosest shims and put them on 1 cylinder then check compression again on that cylinder..if the compression is up than machining/replacing the shims should be the cure
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  29. DYNOBOB

    DYNOBOB Member

    Leakdown results

    I should have done this sooner.

    Cyl 1 @ 87%
    Cyl 2 @ 77%
    Cyl 3 @ 61%

    They match their relative compression numbers. Air escaping out the intake. Seems weird that all of them tightened up that much. I guess next move is figuring out what new shims I need. In anyone's opinion does this point to a mechanical problem other than normal seat wear? The whole inside of the motor is glazed brown but the top of shim and cam lobe are shiny. Deposits in combustion chamber or seats would cause loose not tight valves I think.

    Bob

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  30. greg0187

    greg0187 Moderator Staff Member

    Well... The valve loses its heat through the valve seat. If it doesn't seat the valve will get hot and eventually melt or burn. Could be a reason why the truck eventually got to the state it is in now. Other than that I don't have any other suggestions. Is there clearance at any point of the stroke other than TDC?
     

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