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S110P takes 3 tries to start when cold

Discussion in 'Daihatsu Hi jet' started by MrJPolito, Jan 13, 2022.

  1. MrJPolito

    MrJPolito Active Member

    My automatic Hijet S110P truck (EF-ES fuel injection engine) takes three tries to start before it idles smoothly. I crank the key, it struggles to start, idles VERY rough, then stalls out. After the third (sometimes fourth) time cranking the key, it idles fine.

    I only noticed that this was happening when it was cold outside. When the engine is warm this does not happen; cranks and starts perfectly fine after I drive it to the store and start it again in the parking lot or whatever.

    Recently cleaned out my throttle body and ISC (idle speed control) valve. They weren't very dirty, but I figured this is the most obvious place to look when you're trying to figure out rough idle issues.

    Before cleaning (it wasn't even very dirty):
    photo_2022-01-12_23-24-57.jpg

    Post-cleaning:
    photo_2022-01-12_23-25-33.jpg photo_2022-01-12_23-23-29.jpg

    I followed these instructions to test my ISC valve by hooking up the terminals to a 9v battery: https://www.toyotanation.com/thread...on-the-toyota-idle-air-control-valve.1676205/

    Pictures of how to test the ISC valve from the article:
    1.jpg

    2.jpg

    The valve opens and closes as described. However, it is about half-open when there is no battery power applied to either terminal. Is this normal? (picture below)

    PXL_20220113_015935598.jpg

    If this is normal, I don't know what else to check to try and fix this issue.

    I did recently replace the fuel filter with one that is supposed to fit a Toyota 4runner, so it's a bit different in shape and wasn't unidirectional like the old filter, and I also recently cleaned fuel injectors and replaced O-rings, and installed a new distributor rotor and cap and spark plugs. But I didn't notice any issues with those back when I installed them, and it was still summer so it wasn't cold enough to cause these problems.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. MrJPolito

    MrJPolito Active Member

    Here is a comparison between the new fuel filter I installed (left) and the old fuel filter (right), if that matters:
    photo_2022-01-12_23-47-11.jpg
     
  3. Roadster

    Roadster Active Member

    You might try one of those cheap plastic see-thru filters mounted on a 45* up towards the engine... I had some issue with filters developing an air lock and not filling with fuel. Mine is not FI so might not be a problem on yours...
     
  4. DEG95DH

    DEG95DH Member

    Mine does the same, but doesn't sound as severe as yours. We had some 40 degree days a few weeks back, and it would take 1-2 times. Usually, it would start, sound like it was definitely about to die...and then come to life and work fine. So, I don't think it was a cold or warm engine issue, but a fuel pressure issue. I.e., you could drive it to the store, park it for a few hours until it is cold, but then it would still start fine? Is that accurate?

    I figured it was the pressure regulator somehow leaking pressure over time. Once the line re-filled and pressured up, then it idled great. But, I would expect this to happen any time the vehicle sits for a few days...or whatever amount of time would be needed to significantly depressure back to the tank?

    Seems our fuel pumps are in the tank. Not sure if they run when the key is on, or if they only run when rpms are sensed (I think the EFI ECU has an rpm input, so I could see both ways). On a small engine with relatively short fuel lines, I would not be surprised if the pump doesn't start until you start engaging the starter.
     
  5. MrJPolito

    MrJPolito Active Member

    I think if I leave it long enough until the engine becomes cold it doesn't start right away.

    The more I think about it the more I believe it's fuel related. Pumping the acceleration pedal does nothing. So the butterfly valve is open all the way and it's getting tons of air but there's no acceleration, which means there's not enough fuel burning.

    When I turn the key I don't hear anything pumping, so the fuel pump is probably only turning on when the engine runs. On my Honda Acty you can hear the fuel pump running when the key is just turned on to the accessory position, and that never had issues starting.

    I'm betting there's a loss in fuel pressure as the car sits.
     
  6. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    The fuel pump should run with the key in the run position. Even if the engine isn’t running. Try stopping at “on” for a ten count before going to start.
     
    DEG95DH likes this.
  7. DEG95DH

    DEG95DH Member

    I agree. I just got back to my truck today. It’s been sitting for 5 days. About 50 degF outside. I turned the key to ON and heard fuel pump run for about 2 seconds. Didn’t start it, but turned key back off and then back on. 2 seconds. I did this about 5 times. 2 seconds every time. AFTER all that, I started and it did fine.

    So I propose a variation to Jigs suggestion. Don’t turn it on and count to 10. Instead, turn it on, count to 2, do this 5 times!! :D Then try starting and see if any better.
     
  8. Arty

    Arty Active Member

    I'm going to try the "key to on, then wait ten seconds" routine on my '92 MiniCab.
    It too stumbles and dies a few times when the weather gets to -15C and colder.
     
  9. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    It might help, but is kind of dependent on whether you have an electric fuel pump. It did help when I installed the electric pump on my Hijet. I can turn it on and wait until the pump starts cutting out as the system comes up to pressure, and then pump the pedal four or five, (eight when it is below zero).
     
    Erick Holland likes this.
  10. jam how

    jam how New Member

    Did anyone find a solution here? I have a Super Carry with the R02A fuel injected engine and am experiencing the same thing. Works fine down to the 40's. 30's require numerous attempts. Won't start in the 20's. It will hit once in a while, but always withing a second or two. After that I have to turn off ignition and start over.
     
  11. MrJPolito

    MrJPolito Active Member

    Unfortunately I sold my hijet when the weather warmed up and it was no longer an issue at the time. I do remember adjusting the gas pedal wire to give the engine a little higher idle speed which may have helped a tiny bit.
     
  12. DEG95DH

    DEG95DH Member

    @jam how , here's a thought: is your fuel summer blend or winter blend? If summer blend, your vapor pressure may be too low as the ambient temperature significantly drops, resulting in hard(er) starts. You can either buy some fresh fuel and add to tank to try and increase its pressure, or store your vehicle in a warm(er) place and see if it starts better.

    These are just thoughts off the top of my head...someone more experted can opine with additional thoughts.

    https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/gasoline-reid-vapor-pressure
     
  13. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    Go into your profile and add some details on your rig to the signature. It helps when trying to give advice.

    If you had a carb, I’d say just pump it more. If it is around 30F, then I need to pump my gas pedal, six or seven times to get it to start first try. Gets down around zero, it’s about 12-times.

    On the fuel injections it varies on how the cold idle system is set up. I’d say ada tank heater, but on my Bronco, I added a tank heater, and it made things worse, becasue the temperature sensor was telling the ECM the engine was warmed up, and it wouldn’t richen up enough to start easily.
     
  14. DEG95DH

    DEG95DH Member

    Now that it is much colder for my truck, it refuses to start. I tried my suggestion above, and no discernible difference. Just like @MrJPolito , I have an EFI engine. Thus, nothing to necessarily adjust.

    IF per chance it fired up, it sounded awful -- as if it were running on 1 cylinder! If you touch the gas pedal (rename to air pedal?), it died immediately. At times, if slightly warmer, it would limp idle like this for maybe 30 seconds, then something would suddenly kick in and the engine would come to life (high warm up idle). Once warmed up, started fine, ran fine, idled fine.

    Hopefully, I will be able to look at it in the next few weeks, but it might turn into months. If lucky, I'll find a faulty sensor that feeds the Engine Control Module. I think there is a water temperature sensor and an air temperature sensor. Perhaps one of those is a broken circuit, and the computer thinks it's always warm? The CEL would come on during the limp idle portion, but would go off once everything warmed up.

    If no luck, then I'll start playing with the Rotary ISC valve, as I figure that's the device that chokes the engine when cold. Perhaps it is letting too much air in when cold? I tried starting a cold engine while partially depressing the gas pedal -- no effect. But if the choke device is stuck open, then I think I'd see the symptoms I'm seeing (but not sure why there would be a CEL thrown during the event?).
     
  15. MrJPolito

    MrJPolito Active Member

    I think you might be right about the computer thinking it's always warm but I never got a chance to look into it before I sold that truck. It acted like the throttle was open all the way at ignition. In my case, hitting the gas pedal didn't do anything to make the start less rough.
     
  16. DEG95DH

    DEG95DH Member

    That was the idea, but I would guess that would be a permanent CEL? Whatever the issue is, it's enough to turn the CEL on while it's happening, but then off once it warms up and heals. I don't know enough about these CEL codes to know which are stored permanently, and which automatically reset. If a temperature sensor has a broken wire in it, perhaps it is an open circuit when it gets frigidly cold and the wires pull away from each other, thus throwing a CEL. But, once it warms a little, then the wires expand and remake their contact, and that's when the engine suddenly kicks in. I think it'd be easy enough to check...I'd expect some electrical resistance if the sensor was good. I'm not expecting this to be the problem...just speculating right now.

    After my last post, I read some on the Rotary ISC, thanks again to your link. I noticed it has a bimetallic flat coil spring in it that keeps the valve closed, and then the electromagnetic motor opens as needed. If that spring is partially broke/weak, perhaps it is not closing enough in its cold state? Thus, an adequately cold engine will receive a signal to open very little, but since the spring has not closed the valve enough, it could mimic an under-choked condition (too much air). As the ambient air temperature raises, the valve probably recives a signal to open more, which is why it starts fine once it (or the outside air) warms up some. Again, just speculating at this point.
     

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