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Ignition switch will not crank 1988? S80 needs some help.

Discussion in 'Daihatsu Hi jet' started by JTT3, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    I picked up a late 1980s S80 LHD that was semi abandoned. It was running but had alternator problems and sat for several years until I picked it up. So I’m waiting for a cooling fan to come in for my 1998 Subaru Sambar and decided to try and get the Daihatsu cranked. I used a remote starter switch to try and crank it because the regular ignition switch would not activate the starter. I sprayed some starting fluid in the carb just to see if it would fire. It did not. I’ve checked the main fuse box and the the 60 amp fuse that is under the passengers seat on the inside of the kick panel everything thing was ok. Checked the wires to the coil for a good connection plus it still won’t crank the engine by the key. With the remote switch I can turn it over but it doesn’t fire so I’m thinking It’s something in the wiring that’s wrong. Coil tested ok, plugs are ok but not hearing it fire. Checked the wires to (the old school type) distributor with a porcelain resistor riding piggy back on the coil. Points were filed but still no luck. It’s also had several vacuum hoses replace by me. 1 by 1 so I’m sure they were correctly put in place. So all things considered why wouldn’t the switch work. 1st issue, If I turn the key I get 2 idiot lights coming on so it’s getting power to the switch but it’s not activating the starter. 2nd issue if I turn the key on and use the remote ignition the starter motor turns over but it’s not firing even a little bit even with a shot of starting fluid. I’ll check to see if I’m getting spark from the plugs next. Any other things y’all can think of to try? Thanks John
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  2. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    Engines need tow things to fire: Fuel and Spark. By using a bit of starting fluid, it should have done something if you have spark. So, first guess no spark.

    At this point you have an electrical gremlin at play. I’d check to make sure your getting power to the coil hot lead. Then I’d check to see if grounding an ungrounding the coil negative results in the coil firing. One of these would be handy, and not too expensive: Thexton THE404 Spark Tester https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002STSBM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_yTGoFb5K5V5KS
     
  3. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Jigs I’ve got one and will give that a shot. Keep throwing ideas at me. Thanks
     
  4. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    JTT3,
    Well here goes it. I'm gonna try and do the short version. When I inherited my unit, it started, and ran, after some, massaging!;) It developed, some kind of electrical gremlin, that was making me pull hair out! After a lot of trouble shooting, and testing, everything electrical, besides replacing things, I discovered that even though it was cranking, and firing, when I let off the starter switch, it would just die altogether, discovering that the current quit flowing from start to run position, on the standard spring loaded key switch! With test lights, test buzzer's and two of us, we discovered that an additional wire was needed from the run terminal (on switch) to one of the relay(of 3) wires to continue the circuit! Don't ask me how or why, but all 3 relay's showed good(replaced 3 anyway), and that's how I kept it running correctly, without keeping the starter engaged! My friend Tim, who is 75 yrs. young is still scratching his head! I tried to give you the short version, because it got to be pretty involved, removing the dash, twice tracing and checking wires, only to discover that they changed color coded wires in some of the most awkward places! Not being able to find a proper electrical schematic, I chose to do it old school, and made my own notes and diagrams! Every, electrical components were checking out good, and I freshened every connection, and ground along the way, properly to insure that I wouldn't have to revisit it again!!!These things with their positive grounding systems can be a little frustrating! We wound up testing backwards with the ground's to finally find what we found. Still don't understand how it ran and worked, and then we hat to run another wire to complete the circuit! Just doesn't make sense! I'd like to add that before I found and did this, we pretty much exhausted everything, and tested everything more than twice! Good Luck!
    Limestone
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  5. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    This an S83 wiring diagram. Not sure if it will help.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Thanks Jigs, thanks I’ll give it a try. Something strange seems to be going on with this wiring. It looks factory but it doesn’t seem right. I’ll take some picture and describe the best I can on what’s going on. Thanks again. John
     
  7. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Limestone, I’m pulling what little hair I have out now. Just can’t figure out what’s going on. Looks like I’ll be going down the road you traveled. Best John
     
  8. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    I've worked on some crazy projects before, but this wiring thing still gets me thinking! I wish that I could be of more help. The way I see it, going in with as much info, as you can get, might save you some time and aggravation. I can't begin to tell you how much time it took!!!
     
  9. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Here’s my update. I still can’t find a fusible link between the alternator and the coil. I did find the fuse bus on the kick panel under the passenger seat. It had a wire jumper bypassing it but I took that out and replaced it with a 60 amp fuse. I’m not sure about the wiring to the coil attached is a picture of the coil and wires connected I’ll try to explain what I’ve found. On the left is the Red& black wire connected to negative coil post, the blue wire is on the right thats connected to the positive post. The wire from the the positive post has a jumper that goes to I guess a resistor post, on the opposite side of the resistor is a blade type connector, the wire is black that’s attached to the blade. You may not be able to see it but down by the body rail on the right side is a white&black wire that was connected to the coil mount body bolt. I have not traced the black wire connected to the blade but it appears to be a negative wire. So with the key on the resistor gets really hot. I expected that because it’s connected through the resistor to the positive post of the coil. I’m not even sure that the white porcelain thing is a resistor but it’s the only thing I could think of. I’ve seen voltage reducers similar to it but larger. The way it’s all hooked up doesn’t make sense to me. Someone with more skills on this please explain. I’m stuck.
    F8EE3CFB-F307-453F-BBB7-7DA61BAA559B.jpeg
     
  10. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    Typically, the resistor is only in line when the key is in the run position, and bypassed when starting. Typically they drop the voltage to the coil to about 10-volts.

    This is based on general wiring for the coil on older cars I’ve owned or worked on. But makes sense. Hotter spark to start, a bit lower for running.

    If you check you should have a lower voltage on the side hooked to the coil positive, and full battery voltage on the side feeding into the resistor. The other wire coming in to the coil positive, should be full voltage, when the key is in the start position.

    The wire from the negative should go to the distributor points,

    On My S110P the ground wires have all been white with a black tracer. So your white with black to the mount/ground makes sense.

    And, on the S110 and S83, there is a 10-amp fuse for the engine in the fuse panel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
    Limestone likes this.
  11. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    JTT3,
    On mine, the fusible link was that thicker plug type thing on your positive wire,(blue wire), above your blue arrow indicating the positive wire, in the upper right hand corner, just above, the black with red stripe wire! I hope I explained that well enough. You are correct, that white block is the resister. I agree with the info that Jigs is providing also!
    Limestone
     
  12. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    The fusible link is essentially an in line fuse on the positive terminal of the battery. To determine if the fusible link has been blown , one test lead of your ohmmeter should be on the positive terminal of the battery and the other test lead should be on the end of the fusible link going to the circuit it protects.
    Limestone
     
  13. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Well I screwed up! Trying to remove the positive jumper going to the resister I broke the resistor. I wonder if these are still available here?If you know of a source please let me know. So is the USA model Daihatsu positive ground or negative ground. It’s hooked up as negative ground right now. Is that correct? Sorry for all the questions. Limestone are you saying the connector on the blue wire is the fusible link? Is the black line on the lower connector of the resistor suppose to be a negative line?
    Just received the service manual I bought off eBay, unfortunately it’s a copy that looks like it came off a printer with low ink and some of the words & illustrations are very light. That makes it hard to read so I guess I’ll take it to The copy place and see if I can make darker copies of the pages. It looks to be quite detailed but hard to see clearly. I’ll also try to put it in a pdf to share if anyone needs it once I get the images more clear to view. It’s going to be a large pdf almost 500 pages.
    Limestone & Jigs if I bought a new coil like the one you put on yours Limestone, Pertronix 40611 would I need the resistor? Asking because I’m not sure I’ll be able to find a resistor like the one that was on it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  14. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    The 40611 has a 3-Ohm resistor built in. It shouldn’t need any other resistor. But it is intended to work with their breaker less ignition system.

    I think Limestone is happy with the unit he put in.
     
  15. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Jigs so if I do get the set would I just cap or tape the jumper wire going to the front of the old resistor and the black wire going to the back of the resistor? Basically taking those 2 wires out of the system? Thanks John
     
  16. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    It’s been awhile since I wired one, and then I just did what the instructions said to do. Hopefully, Limestone will chip in.
     
  17. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    JTT3,
    I included some pics of mine and what I did. Pertronix, as explained in the included instructions, suggested to leave the equiped ballast resister in with their coil, as you can see I did! I know that you can get a replacement ballast resistor from, Summit Racing, or any other auto parts store. Yes to your question on the fusible link. The connector on the blue wire. I was surprised too! Verify with test! Jigs, I was surprised to find out that Pertronix, suggested to keep the original ballast resistor in line, also! I am happy with the pertronix, ignitor, and coil, system, per Jigs suggestion, spot on!!! IMG_1653(1).jpg IMG_1654(1).jpg IMG_1655(1).jpg IMG_1656(1).jpg IMG_1657.jpg
     
  18. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    So, I hope that helps, let me know if more info is needed or what else we can help with! Don't be afraid to ask, that's why we all do this!
    Limestone
     
  19. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Limestone thanks for the pictures. Ok I’m asking! Ha, you’ve got more wires connected than I do. Would you mind identifying the wires (what they go to) and where they are connected please. Which side is positive on the coil. I suspect it’s the left side. Thanks.
    C804A12E-584A-4339-95B3-2CAED11167C3.jpeg
     
  20. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    JTT3,
    I was always taught, that more is better! No just kidding! LOL! I should have some time later, or tomorrow, for sure to try to identify, those wires, if it would help. Let me see what I could do! I know the red wire goes to, an hour meter, showing how many hrs. the unit has run. Many, institutions, city,(government), vehicles use this method a lot! The coil, terminals, have +, and - next to the terminals, on the top,(face) of the case, as you probably know, but I'll still try to identify everything!
    Limestone
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  21. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    Symptoms of a bad ballast resistor may be a crank but no start or start followed by an immediate stall. You will most likely not get any warning of its failure; it may be working fine today and give out tomorrow. A quick and easy way to diagnose ballast resistor failure is to bypass it by running a temporary jumper wire from the battery to the coil. If it starts and remains running, you’ve found the problem.
     
  22. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    JTT3,
    Yes that's a ground wire,(YOUR RED WRITING)(black,upper right corner) per Petronix, going to distributor. One side of the ballat goes to the posotive side of the coil, and the other goes to the switch!
    Limestone
     
  23. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    So, I have to ask: Have we disappeared down a rabbit hole? The original topic was not cranking with the key.

    Has that been resolved?
     
  24. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    Right, All the ballast does is reduce the voltage, apprx. 6 to 9 volts. Eliminate the ballast, run a jumper, and see if it will crank,(start)!
     
  25. Jigs-n-fixtures

    Jigs-n-fixtures Well-Known Member

    I’m just concerned that this started with the truck not engaging the starter from the key, but a manual switch to the solenoid engaging the starter and cranking the engine but not starting. Then discussion of the fusible link, which was never found.

    But a jumpered fuse block was, And a really big fuse installed. Note: The fuse is supposed to be Sized to protect the wire, and if the wiring on his truck is the same size as most of the wiring on my truck the biggest fuse should be a 20=amp. You don’t want to burn up the wiring harness.

    And, now were tearing into the ignition circuit. I’m still not sure whether there is any current getting to the ballast resistor at all.
     
  26. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    Exactly! That's the point I was trying to make early on in the discussion when I was trying to explain what I went through. TEST, TEST TEST!!! And then RETEST!!! I can see what he's doing, and that is trying to understand what's going on, and trying to understand his unit! With these things, you never know what somebody else has done, and whats original and whats not, meaning; How is it supposed to be!
     
  27. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    That’s it exactly Limestone & all. I’m testing everything I can trying to understand what may have been altered. Jigs thanks for the recommendation of a smaller fuse. I had read that 50 to 60 amp fuse went there & definitely not the jumper wire that I discovered. The connection I thought was a fusible link That was connected to the positive side of the coil turned out to be a diode. I’m trying to isolate where the problem is. Lights work, blinkers work, blower works. Horn doesn’t but I can figure out that later. Not trying to start a ruckus but you all know more than me that’s why I’m asking so I don’t screw something up.
     
  28. JTT3

    JTT3 Member

    Ha I was talking about the picture of your coil and connections. In the picture which side is which?
     
  29. Limestone

    Limestone Well-Known Member

    Sorry bout that, I meant to say that earlier. Left side is positive!(in the pic) That would make the right side negative(in the pic). When I was going through what you were and trying to figure everything out, I would label everything with making tape, and a sharpie, it saves a lot of time when we start chasing our tail, so to speak, on these crazy projects like this! Don't worry, your not starting a ruckus. I had to verify everything on mine, assuming nothing, not knowing who or what might have been changed with out us knowing, and as everything ages, it all starts to look like it's been that way a long time! Good Luck!
    Limestone
     

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