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Sambar - serious engine damage after oil leak repair and timing belt kit replacement

Discussion in 'Subaru Sambar' started by Damon, Jan 13, 2015.

  1. Damon

    Damon New Member

    This is my first post to the forum. I'm not a mechanic so I'm hoping to get some advice or opinions from you guys who are much more knowledgeable than me.

    I took my truck (1991 Sambar with 80,000km on it) into the dealer to repair an oil leak as well as replace the timing belt and water pump.

    I picked up the truck, everthing's done - new timing belt kit & waterpump, new valve cover gasket and seals. The only thing is now the oil pressure warning light is flickering on and off. I'm told that it's just the switch malfunctioning and that they didn't have the part, but not to worry, it's just the switch. I could get that fixed later when they get the part in.

    So I'm driving home from the shop, and everything is fine, and just as I'm approaching my exit (after driving about 70km on the highway), I start losing power, the truck slowing down, and as I'm on the exit ramp I hear a loud racket, like a knocking sound from the engine, and losing power. And when I stop at a light or stop sign, the truck stalls. I'm able to start it again and reach home.

    The truck was towed back to the shop, and they said, after opening the motor, they found the timing belt / tensioner / valves are all good, that the top part of motor is all good. But the bottom part of engine crankshaft / connecting rod and connecting bearings are gone, and I would need a new engine. They said this is caused by metal wear because of age, also lack of engine oil being distributed, either low in oil or low in oil pressure.

    After doing some research, and talking to people (one of them a licensed mechanic), I'm questioning the explanations given to me by the dealer and I'm thinking that something is not right.

    Their explanations are:

    1. metal wear due to age -- how could that be the case when there are only 80,000km on the truck?

    2. low engine oil -- why would the oil be low when they just repaired the oil leak (new valve cover gasket, seals) and changed the oil?

    3. low oil pressure -- the oil pressure warning light was flickering on and off, but they said it was just the switch malfunctioning, not that there may actually be a problem with the oil pressure (NOTE: I never had a problem with the warning light flickering before bringing it to the shop)

    So I'm not sure what to think. Needless to say it came as quite a shock to hear that I now have to put in a new engine (for $3500 plus labour).

    Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.

    Damon
     
  2. Jim Nelson

    Jim Nelson Active Member

    You're right to be suspicious,it sounds like someone forgot to put oil in it. It sure wouldn't be the first time but will be real hard to prove if you didn't check it before sending it back to them.
     
  3. Damon

    Damon New Member

    That's what my neighbour suggested, that they probably just didn't fill it up with oil. That sure would be a simple explanation. Unfortunately I didn't check it before sending it back.

    What do you think about the possibility that there may be another cause, such as low oil pressure because of a problem with the oil pump? Or other causes of low oil pressure?

    And what about that faulty oil pressure warning light? Seems somehow coincidental.

    Just trying to explore all possibilities to see if the dealer has a reasonable case.
     
  4. Jim Nelson

    Jim Nelson Active Member

    It sounds like the oil pressure light was working correctly before you took it in but flickering when you picked it up.He should have checked the oil right then and saved all the problems,I just can't understand a mechanic coming up with a b.s. story about a sending unit suddenly going bad rather than doing the obvious and checking the oil.It's impossible to judge something like this from a distance but either he's really incompetent or there is more to the story.I sure would give it some serious thought before having him do any more work.
     
  5. SpikeFiend

    SpikeFiend Member

    I'm not an engine expert, but failing immediately after a major service points to the shop.

    The shop did an oil change in addition to the timing belt? If so, they forgot to add oil. You wouldn't miss an oil leak that would empty an engine in 70km (though you could probably drive without oil that far before the engine eats itself). However, you don't need to drain the oil if you're just doing a timing belt/water pump change.

    If the oil pressure light just occasionally flickers, I wouldn't worry about it. I see it come on after I've driven on the highway for a while then come to a stop... at idle the RPM will drop (feels like it might stall) and the light will come on persistently (I just give it a bit of gas to speed up the engine and it goes off). Driving at high speed/RPM would keep the oil pressure high (unless the oil pump failed outright).
     
    Derek Groth likes this.
  6. Damon

    Damon New Member

    Thanks Jim and SpikeFiend for your replies. I appreciate your insight and it pretty much confirms my suspicions that "something is rotten in Denmark".

    I emailed the dealer, basically saying what I said at the beginning of this thread, that I'm questioning his explanations, and his reply is as follows:

    "We do not have any photograph to see when this engine decided to go.
    I have written based on our experience/knowledge with these Sambars.
    Any oil leak in the past / weak oil pump can wear metal parts even for 80,000 kms.
    The bottom line is that your crankshaft related parts went. This crankshaft drives and moves camshaft spining timing belt.
    In anycase please let me know what you want to do with the truck."

    So he maintains that it's because of worn parts that the engine failed, even though it's only been driven 80,000km.

    I'm wondering if I should consider small claims court, as it's obvious he's not going to take responsiblity.
     
  7. SpikeFiend

    SpikeFiend Member

    I don't know if you'd have much of a case, unless you've got a full set of service records.

    That being said, it's probably worth talking to a lawyer who specializes automotive cases (or customer vs. dealer cases). You could probably get a free initial consultation to find out if you've got a case or not.
     
  8. Damon

    Damon New Member

    I do have all the service records since I bought it (it had 55,000km when I bought it).

    That's a good idea to have a consultation with a lawyer. I'll look into that and see if I can find someone who specializes, or at least is familiar with this kind of thing.

    In the meantime, I need to decide what to do with the truck (it's still at the dealer's shop), if I'm going to keep it and put in a new engine (by a different shop!), or get a new truck, etc... With the cost of the new engine, plus labour, plus tax I'm looking at close to $5,000.
     
  9. SpikeFiend

    SpikeFiend Member

    For $5000 you could buy a new Sambar and keep that one for parts. You could probably do alright parting it out even, seeing how the prices for parts in North America is pretty high.

    Did you do your own service for those 30k, or did you take it in somewhere? Do you have an initial inspection showing everything was A-OK when you received it? Basically, if you can show everything worked great until the most recent service that would help.
     
  10. Jim Nelson

    Jim Nelson Active Member

    I wouldn't even think about putting another 5K in that truck.I'm afraid that you are just going to have to cut your losses and go another way. I really don't think you are dealing with an ethical dealer there and you might get some thing out of him with a lawyer but by the time you're done you'll have more than it's worth in legal fees.
     
  11. Damon

    Damon New Member

    I've been searching the threads here on the forum and found 4 other incidents of the same thing happening, i.e. Subaru Sambar engines suddenly dying and having to be replaced because of damaged rod bearings, crankshaft, etc. As well as comments that this is typical of Sambars. (quote from Don @ Yokohama Motors - "If the engine has the famous “Subaru Knock”, replace the engine."

    http://www.minitrucktalk.com/showth...en-worse&highlight=subaru+crankshaft+bearings
    http://www.minitrucktalk.com/showth...ower-not-good&highlight=sambar+rebuilt+engine
    http://www.minitrucktalk.com/showth...ormance-Engine-Build&highlight=rebuilt+engine
    http://www.minitrucktalk.com/showth...750-gsxr-build&highlight=subaru+sambar+engine

    I'm still not clear as to why it happens, though. Do the parts (connecting rods, bearings, etc.) just wear out? And it still seems too coincidental that it would happen to me on the way back from the shop.

    Anyways, I'm thinking that, ya, it's too much $ to put in a rebuilt engine. Better to cut my losses and just get another truck.
     
  12. renli3d

    renli3d Member

    If this happened as you described then the dealer is simply trying to cover himself. There is no way that previous wear would cause catastrophic damage like that if it had been previously running fine, albeit leaking oil before the service. A wearing engine would lose performance gradually over time. Seals would wear and you'd be seeing smoke in the exhaust. Considering the robustness of the crankshaft parts the only thing that would cause the sudden failure you described is if something foreign entered the engine and collided with the internal parts or insufficient oil. You should test the oil pump. If the oil pump is working properly then most likely they forgot to refill the engine oil. I've had so many issues with mechanics screwing up over the years on my own vehicles that I do my own servicing these days. I'm no mechanic but you can learn pretty much anything on Youtube, forums and service manuals if you have the time and the desire.
     
  13. Damon

    Damon New Member

    renli3d, your thinking makes perfect sense to me, and I think to the others here as well.

    I do think it's interesting that mine is not the first Sambar to deal with this issue, though. Those other cases that I found (see links in previous post) were just like mine, they also seemed to just happen. Now I'm wondering if it's a Sambar thing..? Some are saying that it's a common thing with Sambars.
     
  14. renli3d

    renli3d Member

    I read through the other posts and they appear to be different circumstances. One guy had a blown headgasket. If the vehicle was driven with a blown headgasket for a while, the engine oil would have been contaminated with coolant. If you ever see white smoke out of your exhaust for no reason, shut off the engine because you have a headgasket leak most likely. Contaminated engine oil could certainly destroy an engine.

    Another guy had blocked coolant passages which allowed his engine to overheat. That would klil an engine too.

    One guy had a strange problem that kept occurring. He heard engine knocking before his engine, or should I say, engine(s) died. I don't know what his story was. I don't think he ever figured it out. Sounds like its unique to him though.

    I assume your car was running good before the service but I suppose I should ask:

    Before you brought it in -

    1) Did your engine oil look contaminated? The color of caramel? Smell of gasoline? Was it frothy?

    2) Did you notice smoke from the exhaust? Not the typical stuff that comes out of all cars on a cold morning but thick white, blue or black smoke?

    3) Did you hear any strange sounds from the engine like ticking or knocking?

    4) Did you notice any weird issues with performance?

    5) At what rate was it leaking oil? Where was it leaking from? I assume the valve cover since you had that replaced. A leaky valve cover, unlike a leaky head gasket won't kill an engine as long as you maintain proper oil levels.

    6) Did the engine ever run hot?

    If the issue was engine wear then I would expect a yes to some of these questions. If not, I think the oil pump failed or there was no oil. Forum members that are mechanics - what do you think?
     
  15. Damon

    Damon New Member

    Yes, my truck was running fine before I brought it in.

    An issue that I had a couple of months earlier was the truck would sort of misfire, jerk, hesitate, etc., and it turned out the oil leak was getting into the spark system, so I had it cleaned out, plugs, wires, replaced, etc., with the intention of getting the oil leak fixed at a later time. After that it was running fine, and still running fine before I brought it in to have the oil leak taken care of - replaced valve cover gasket and seals - as well as replacing timing belt and water pump.

    To answer your questions:

    1) I think the oil looked fine. No gasoline, etc.
    2) No smoke from the exhaust
    3) I did notice that every once in a long while, I would hear the engine ticking (not knocking) as I idled at a stoplight. It seemed to happen rarely, though.
    4) No issues with performance, except for the misfiring from the oil leaking into the spark system, as I mentioned. Once that was cleaned up it was fine.
    5) The oil was leaking from the front crank / cam seal and valve cover. Not at an alarming rate. I made sure I kept it filled up.
    6) I don't think the engine ran hot.

    Could the engine ticking (#3) have been an issue? It wasn't regular. In fact it happened pretty rarely.
     
  16. renli3d

    renli3d Member

    The engine ticking most likely had nothing to do with the failure. I have a Mitsubishi Montero that ticks all the time but it's normal. a front crankshaft seal leak can be serious but if the leak is slow and you monitored the oil level it wouldn't cause catastrophic failure either. IMO I still believe the dealer had something to do with the failure. Does the dealer have their own mechanic? If so, you may be able to come to a compromise. Maybe you pay 75% of the cost of parts and the dealer pays the rest and provides free labor. Hopefully the engine wouldn't be more than $2500.
     
  17. Damon

    Damon New Member

    Yes, the dealer has his own mechanic and a full service shop. But it's looking like he's not going to take responsibility, so I don't think we'll be able to reach a compromise. I don't know, it might just be time to move on...

    Anyways, I sure appreciate your advice, renli3d. And Jim and SpikeFiend. You guys have been great. Your thoughts and advice have been very helpful and much appreciated.
     
  18. renli3d

    renli3d Member

    Any resolution to thus unfortunate dispute? If not, I would like to know who this dealer is so that I can avoid him in the future. If he's not willing to at least provide free labor to fix an issue that he likely caused that speaks volumes...
     
  19. hatch

    hatch Member

    My knee jerk reaction is that the shop forgot to put oil in it and you are paying the price. I have always been told that if something ever happens never let it go back in the shop it left. Once back in their shop they could add oil to cover their tracks which makes it almost impossible to prove other wise. I surely hate this happened to you and I wish you the very best of luck.
     
  20. Damon

    Damon New Member

    Well, to update, I got rid of the truck and bought another one - a Dihatsu Hijet.

    I ended up just selling the Sambar to the dealer that I bought it from - I know, a stupid thing to do, considering that he might have been the one who screwed up the engine, and I only got $650 for it - but I just wanted to get rid of it, cut my losses and move on, and not have to deal with storing it, finding a buyer, or parting it out, etc.

    I bought the Hijet from another dealer specializing in JDM cars and I'm pretty happy with it.

    Renli3d, I'm not sure if I should name the dealer, because I still don't know for sure that he caused the problem, and it would be unfair to him if he wasn't at fault. I'm not sure what would be the right thing to do..?

    Thanks Hatch, by the way, for your thoughts and good wishes.
     
  21. renli3d

    renli3d Member

    $650? If the vehicle was in good condition that's a steal just as a parts truck. It would be completely ok to mention the dealer. You aren't accusing him of anything so he can't sue you for defamation or libel. You're just stating your experience which is perfectly fine. One thing that's been bothering me is if the dealer's mechanic opened up the engine to the point that he was able to determine that the lower engine components were completely destroyed then why couldn't he simply replace those parts while he had the engine open? It's not like it's a ton more work at that point.
     
  22. Damon

    Damon New Member

    The dealer is Japanoid in New Westminster, BC. It's run by Shogo (not sure if he's the owner).

    I guess you're right, I'm not saying he was, in fact, responsible for the damage, I'm just saying I have my suspicions based on the circumstances. He may or may not have been negligent. I guess we'll never know.

    As far as replacing the parts while the engine was opened up, I don't know. He said it would take 10 days to get a rebuilt motor and it would cost $3,500 plus 6-7 hours of labour. I guess he just wasn't prepared to take any responsibilty for the damage, and therefore wouldn't do any work without charging full price for it.

    Anyways, I won't be doing any business with him anymore.

    I bought the Dihatsu from Vancouver Velocity Cars. They specialize in Japanese imports, but don't typically have mini trucks. They're your typical used car dealer. Gotta be on your toes, know your limit, be firm in your negotiation and so on.

    And I'll be taking my Dihatsu for servicing to Taka at Maple Import Japan. He was recommended to me by Todd at Westshore Auto in Victoria, BC.

    So anyways, after all is said and done, life goes on, and I'm pretty happy with my Dihatsu. I guess I'll have to move over to the Hijet forum now... ;)
     

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